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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2001, 06:38pm
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Official 1 comes to the table reports the foul and tells the team A coach that A1 has 5 fouls. A1 walks over and stands by the team A bench but is still on the floor. For some reason, official 1 doesn't ask for a 30 sec. clock but instead proceeds to take his position as trail to shoot the free throws.

Here is mistake #1, as we all know. Actually, mistakes #1 and #2. First, he doens't ask for 30 seconds and wait for the sub. Second, he never tells the player that he has fouled out (you should do this after you tell the coach, by rule).

No sub in the game. Official 2 proceeds to announce the 1 and 1 and bounces the ball to B1. Official 1 does nothing. B1 shoots the first free throw and misses. A2 rebounds and throws the ball to A1 who drives in, is fouled by B1 but still proceeds to dunk the ball and then does a chin up on the rim. You guessed it, Official 1 calls the foul on B1 and then a "T" on A1.

Nothing wrong with this. The basket, foul on B1, and technical on A1 should all count.

As he goes to the table, he is met by the team B coach who is SCREAMING that A1 fouled out on the previous play and that the dunk shouldn't count and that his player (B1) should get to re-attempt his 1 and 1 and that there should be a "T" for having an illegal player in the game.

Do I even need to comment on this? We all should know that this coach is WAY off - none of this is correct.

The official tells Team B coach to "sit down and shut up while he confers with his partner".

Friendly officiating hint #1: When you just caused everything to get FUBAR - you shouldn't be telling anyone to shut-up.

The two officials get together and this is what they decide to do. They wipe out the basket by A1 and the foul by B1 (B's best player and this would have been his fifth).

Can't do this. The only situation in which wiping a basket and a foul is allowed by rule is after a made free-throw in which case the wrong team takes the ball out-of-bounds. There is no other situation in which you can make this ruling.

They rule that because the play should not have happened (i.e. a sub was not brought into the game) the ball was and remained dead after the first foul call on A1. They assess a technical foul to A1 for dunking a dead ball and a technical foul to Team A for unspotsmanlike conduct for having a disqualified player participate in the game.

It should not have happened, but they can't wipe everything off because of their mistake. They are on iffy ground concerning the second technical for a disqualified player participating. If I remember correctly the rule book says something about the player knowingly participating - in which this case, he didn't (because they never told him he fouled out).

Of course, they told the coach, but then promptly walked off. I think that the prudent and common sense thing to do here is NOT assess the technical foul (this would be the only one that was indirect against the coach, if they did call it, btw).

They decide to resume by having B1 re-attempt his 1 and 1. They call B1 to the free throw line and allow him to shoot his 1 and 1 and he makes both (A-53, B-53).

Makes no sense whatsoever. You are giving B another chance to make a free throw that they don't deserve. This is not a correctable error.

Team A coach (not to mention the fans and the varsity coach)is going nuts "you guys screwed up", etc. yelling profusely. Official 2 "T"s coach of Team A and tells him because of the two previous "T"s this "T" causes his ejection.

I get mad when I know the coach is right too, but you shouldn't throw him out for it!

After a delay in which they threaten to end the game if the Team A coach doesn't leave, the coach is led away by the AD,

Never, never, never make threats.

they shoot 6 free throws for the technicals, and needless to say, B goes on to win the game.

Can anyone say "cluster"?!?

When I tried to talk to these guys in the locker room, they adamantly defended their position so I quickly shut my mouth and left. The review I turned into the rating committee was not flattering to say the least.

Unbelievable... This is usually how it is though. These guys have no clue as to the rules, which is why they had to make things up as they go along.

I'm all for common-sense officiating, but if you don't have a basis (the rules) then you are unable to use common sense.

Can you imagine getting in a plane and flying it using "common sense"??? I'm sure that there are some situations that call for it, but if you don't know the nitty-gritty technical details to begin with, how can you rely on common-sense???
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2001, 08:44pm
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Re: re: re: re: Yikes!

Quote:
3 things -
1- We're not talking about a 30 second timeout here. When a player fouls out, the coach has 30 seconds to replace him. The timer starts the 30 seconds when the official tells him to.
E-X-A-M-P-L-E: (excuse me for being cynical, but I'm like that)

Quote:
2- And since we're at it, on a 30 second or full timeout, you don't start the timeout until the official tells you to do so. The timeout doesn't start until the players get to their bench. So when you start the 30 seconds or 1 minute "whether or not the players are there," you are wrong to do so
Didn't I say that already? From me:

Quote:
After I see what time-out it is (whether be 30 or full), once I see it, I punch it in, whether or not the players are there
I meant after the official tells me what it is.

Quote:
3- The score that you put on the scoreboard doesn't mean anything. The scorebook is the official score. You should post scores based on what the scorer does, not what the official does.
However, whoever takes in the winning/losing team refers to the scoreboard. I'm not saying your wrong, because your not, but the scoreboard is even what the bookkeeper will refer to.

Quote:
It doesn't work like that. We don't do things just because it makes everyone happy. If you don't understand that, then you might want to consider just reading and asking questions, rather than making comments like that. I'm not trying to be ugly, just offering a little advice.
You don't understand me. I meant that redoing the ENTIRE play, from where the mistake was made, would be the easiest thing to do, and it would also make everyone happy. The everyone happy part is just a little bonus.

Matthew




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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2001, 08:45pm
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Quote:
I think what is being said in this situation is that a good timer should be aware to start the 30sec. DQ clock, or prompt the ref for a start.
THANK YOU!

Matthew
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2001, 08:47pm
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You are way way way wrong!

Quote:
You beat me to the punch. The scoreboard is there only for the convienence of the players, coaches, and fans, it doesn't mean anything. The book is the only thing that matters.
Let's see the bookkeeper keep the time. It's a little more than nothing now, eh?

Matthew

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2001, 10:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by OPTIPLEX2001
3 things -
1- We're not talking about a 30 second timeout here. When a player fouls out, the coach has 30 seconds to replace him. The timer starts the 30 seconds when the official tells him to.


E-X-A-M-P-L-E: (excuse me for being cynical, but I'm like that)[/quote]

When a player fouls out, the official will inform the coach and then inform the player. He will then tell the timer to let him know when 30 second expire. This also applies when a player must be replaced due to injury or an equipment violation, such as the shirt tail hanging out.

Quote:
2- And since we're at it, on a 30 second or full timeout, you don't start the timeout until the official tells you to do so. The timeout doesn't start until the players get to their bench. So when you start the 30 seconds or 1 minute "whether or not the players are there," you are wrong to do so

Didn't I say that already? From me:

After I see what time-out it is (whether be 30 or full), once I see it, I punch it in, whether or not the players are there

I meant after the official tells me what it is.
The official should tell you when to start the TO and he shouldn't do that until all players have made their way to their benches. You indicated that you started the TO clock whether or not the players were there, which would be incorrect.

Quote:
3- The score that you put on the scoreboard doesn't mean anything. The scorebook is the official score. You should post scores based on what the scorer does, not what the official does.
Quote:

However, whoever takes in the winning/losing team refers to the scoreboard. I'm not saying your wrong, because your not, but the scoreboard is even what the bookkeeper will refer to.


If you have a scorer that's referring to the scoreboard to keep the book, then the officials at that game will have a huge problem sooner or later. The scorebook is the official record of the game. It doesn't matter what score the timer puts on the scoreboard. The timer's main responsibility is to keep the clock, not the score. Obviously, the score needs to be accurate but if there's a discrepancy, the officials wil go the running score in the scorebook.

Quote:
It doesn't work like that. We don't do things just because it makes everyone happy. If you don't understand that, then you might want to consider just reading and asking questions, rather than making comments like that. I'm not trying to be ugly, just offering a little advice.
Quote:

You don't understand me. I meant that redoing the ENTIRE play, from where the mistake was made, would be the easiest thing to do, and it would also make everyone happy. The everyone happy part is just a little bonus.


I understand you perfectly, which is why I'm trying to explain to you why you're wrong. We can't re-do the entire thing. We have rules that we have to go by when things like this happen. The rules do not allow us to ignore what happened in a situation like this, no matter how easy it may seem.

Keep reading and learning Matthew.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2001, 11:55pm
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Another lesson that can be learned from this
case is the critical working relationship between
the scorer and timer and the officials. Always
make it a point to talk with them, not only to go
over the basics but letting them know they are an important part of the offciating crew during the game and that the only way we on the floor can have a good game is if they
do their job properly. We all have brain cramps at sometime or another so I always tell them don't let me do anything stupid out there. More than once during my years has an on the ball score or timer saved my butt. I will never be mad at a scorer or time for calling me over for something even if it is not correct as they were just tring to do what they thought was, right which is what we should expect from them.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 30, 2001, 07:48am
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Paul..u be the man

I envisioned the entire situation as I read your response.
Right on the money!
I know it was said, but, We are not working to make everyone
happy. That is an impossibility!
One observation on the original post. Either the reporting
official was in a hurry to get away from the table after
fouling out the star, in a hurry or just plain doesn't know
the rules. By the way did these guys know they were being
observed?
To the clock operator. At the risk of sounding like a tyrant, You don't do anything unless told verbally or by
use of a mechanic. And we don't signal made baskets anymore.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 30, 2001, 07:49am
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Except a 3 pointer.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 30, 2001, 08:27am
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Re: Re: Re: Yikes!

Quote:
Originally posted by OPTIPLEX2001
Quote:
A timer should not do anything until the Official tells him so, not trying to be high and mighty, but the official signals to the time keeper when to start/stop game clock and when to start timing a timeout.
That's not the way I, or anyone else at our school operates. After I see what time-out it is (whether be 30 or full), once I see it, I punch it in, whether or not the players are there. BTW, if the timer shouldn't do anything unless the official signals him to, a lot of field goals wouldn't be shown...

Here's why you have to wait until told by the official to start a timing situation:

Time-outs: Official recognizes that a Team A's request for a TO and sounds his whistle. The official then goes to the reporting area near the S/T Table and is told by the Head Coach A whether he wants a full or 30 sec. TO (at least in theory that is how that part is supposed to work). The official then announces to the Head Coach B the type of TO.
The official then announces to the Scorer: Team A TO, full/30 sec. by the Coach/Player no., and then signals the Timer to start the TO.

Disqualified Player: After the Scorer notifies the Official of a A1's disqualification, the Official notifies Head Coach A of A1's disqualification the notifies his partner of A1's disqualification, and then the Official finaly has the Timer start the 30 sec. TO.

Injured Player: The Official does not signal the Timer to start the 30 sec. TO until the injured player has been completely removed from the court. If it takes 15 minutes before the player can be removed from the court, his coach does not have to make any decision to replace him until after the player has been removed from the court.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 30, 2001, 10:06am
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Re: Re: re: re: re: Yikes!

Quote:
You don't understand me. I meant that redoing the ENTIRE play, from where the mistake was made, would be the easiest thing to do, and it would also make everyone happy. The everyone happy part is just a little bonus.
You either don't get it or don't want to get it. One thing I have learned about officiating, the easiest thing to do, is usually not the right/legal thing to do.

BTW, I did not mean to belittle the responsibilities of the scorekeeper, obviously the score keeper and time keeper are very important to the game.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 31, 2001, 05:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rookie
You beat me to the punch. The scoreboard is there only for the convienence of the players, coaches, and fans, it doesn't mean anything. The book is the only thing that matters.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, ad infinitum.

Would you be willing to come sit in the stands for every game I run the clock/scoreboard? That way when I put points for the wrong team (usually 1x/game - when they switch @ the half) you can explain this to the fans?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 31, 2001, 08:44pm
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Mark,

You have my full blown respect as a referee.

Matthew
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 31, 2001, 09:05pm
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Re: Mark,

Quote:
Originally posted by OPTIPLEX2001
You have my full blown respect as a referee.

Matthew
Mark isn't a referee. He's a timer.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 31, 2001, 10:02pm
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Re: Mark,

Quote:
Originally posted by OPTIPLEX2001
You have my full blown respect as a referee.

Matthew
Which Mark? Padgett, DeNucci, Dexter?? (sorry if I spelled the names wrong)

First two are refs. Last is a wanna-be floor official who runs clock and book.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 01, 2001, 04:04am
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and the worst thing that has happened during my season is that i shot a 1+1 and it should have been 2 shots. (Yes, i did catch it....it was my first correctible error in 9 years!)

buy the way....as an evaluator where did you start?..and how long did the talk take after.

keep smiling
SH
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