The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 11, 2004, 05:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 96
High School Varsity fall league /scrimmage last night . Team A comes down and sets up in half court offense and is moving the ball around the perimeter when the buzzer goes off and everyone except for one player stops and looks around . Of course that one player has the ball and casually tosses up a 3 pointer and drains it . I do not blow the whistle this entire time as I think it is the buzzer on the next court . Team B takes the ball out and just stands there and the timer starts yelling at me that she is sorry about blowing the horn and Team B coach is yelling also but he is not sorry ...he is mad that we didn't stop play . I then blow the whistle confer with the timer about what happened and then call over my partner . My partner is pretty adament about counting the score as no whistle blew but in my infinite wisdom (OK first game of the year)I decide to wave the basket off and award the ball to team A at the top of the key . Team B is not terribly pleased and asks for an explanation and I tell them that for all intents and purposes play stopped (In my opinion the shooter was just putting it up without much regard as to what happened)because of the horn and if the ball had not gone in I would have awarded them possesion on the miss when we re-started . It all sounded great to me and the coach was somewhat mollified (My partner was not real pleased with my decision) so we continued on from there . Now I know technically I should not have done this and if it ever happened again I would count the hoop and play on but at the time I thought common sense was the correct choice . If anyone has any insight on how they would have handled this I am more then happy to hear...
I am prepared to face the firing squad for making this egregious error . My partner was laughing after the game because I was able to sell the call but he said I would have gotten reamed by the board if this was a "real" game...and I agreed with him wholeheartedly .
BTW of course Team A lost on two free throws converted by Team B with 4 seconds left
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 11, 2004, 05:24pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

The players stopped playing because of the buzzer.
You had a start over.
That's fine with me.
mick
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 11, 2004, 05:45pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by WeekendRef
Team B is not terribly pleased and asks for an explanation and I tell them that for all intents and purposes play stopped (In my opinion the shooter was just putting it up without much regard as to what happened)because of the horn and if the ball had not gone in I would have awarded them possesion on the miss when we re-started . It all sounded great to me and the coach was somewhat mollified (My partner was not real pleased with my decision) so we continued on from there . Now I know technically I should not have done this and if it ever happened again I would count the hoop and play on but at the time I thought common sense was the correct choice .
BTW of course Team A lost on two free throws converted by Team B with 4 seconds left
Technically, your butt is covered. See case book play 2.11.3- "If the scorer signals when the ball is live, the official should ignore the signal if a scoring play is in progress. Otherwise, the official may stop play to determine the the reason for the scorer's signal". The scoring play in your situation wasn't in progress when the horn went off, but came AFTER the horn sounded. You meet the purpose and intent of this rule if you cancel everything that happened after the horn and then resume play at the point of interruption.

Imo, you used good, common sense in coming up with the call that you did come up with.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 11:12am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Irving, Texas
Posts: 675
What was your partner's reasoning for counting the basket?
You say that one player does not stop, then you say he casually shoots the ball. Casually shooting the ball, whatever that is, seems it would fit under the "stopped playing" heading.
__________________
- SamIAm (Senior Registered User) - (Concerning all judgement calls - they depend on age, ability, and severity)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 07:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,847
Am I the only one who thinks it would be the right thing to do to count the basket and go from there? Neither official "stopped play" after the horn went off, so play goes on. Only a whistle stops the play. The refs were to blame for the situation - game awareness. How many times has a horn gone off inadvertently and you just tell the kids to play on? The rule that was quoted previously is irrelevant because the refs never stopped the play with a whistle.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 08:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Am I the only one who thinks it would be the right thing to do to count the basket and go from there?
Not necessarily. I can see both sides of this. If everybody, including the shooter, had stopped, then I'm fine with the way it was handled. Then you can say the shooter was just hacking around when everybody knew the play was over.

But it sounds like the shooter continued with his scoring play and was not stopped by the officials. In that case, I would probably be in favor of handling by the book. No whistle, no stoppage, count the bucket. Doing it that way is easily defendable.

Seems like a "had to see it" situation. I would have to see the players' reaction to the horn.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 08:59pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Am I the only one who thinks it would be the right thing to do to count the basket and go from there? Neither official "stopped play" after the horn went off, so play goes on. Only a whistle stops the play. The refs were to blame for the situation - game awareness. How many times has a horn gone off inadvertently and you just tell the kids to play on? The rule that was quoted previously is irrelevant because the refs never stopped the play with a whistle.
Good catch, Smitty!
Good call, Smitty!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 11:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Am I the only one who thinks it would be the right thing to do to count the basket and go from there? Neither official "stopped play" after the horn went off, so play goes on. Only a whistle stops the play. The refs were to blame for the situation - game awareness. How many times has a horn gone off inadvertently and you just tell the kids to play on? The rule that was quoted previously is irrelevant because the refs never stopped the play with a whistle.
Yep, either blow the whistle right away and stop play or play on. Make a decisive move and stick with it.

Also, preventative officiating: My pre-game captains meeting is very brief, but I always remind them to "play the whistle, not the horn"... especially in girls games where our state uses a shot clock.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 11:07pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Am I the only one who thinks it would be the right thing to do to count the basket and go from there? Neither official "stopped play" after the horn went off, so play goes on. Only a whistle stops the play. The refs were to blame for the situation - game awareness. How many times has a horn gone off inadvertently and you just tell the kids to play on? The rule that was quoted previously is irrelevant because the refs never stopped the play with a whistle.
Disagree completely. You just gave one team a heckuva unfair advantage. Obviously the other team completely stopped playing defense on this play, as Weekend Ref pointed out. The spirit and intent of the rules are to always have a FAIR contest out there. Your solution can hardly be called "fair"- especially when there is some rules language available that will enable you to be fair.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 12, 2004, 11:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Obviously the other team completely stopped playing defense on this play,
So what? If one kid or team is smarter than the other, that's no reason to blow the whistle.

Having said that, the lower the level, the quicker I will be to blow the whistle after the inadvertant horn.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 13, 2004, 09:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,847
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Am I the only one who thinks it would be the right thing to do to count the basket and go from there? Neither official "stopped play" after the horn went off, so play goes on. Only a whistle stops the play. The refs were to blame for the situation - game awareness. How many times has a horn gone off inadvertently and you just tell the kids to play on? The rule that was quoted previously is irrelevant because the refs never stopped the play with a whistle.
Disagree completely. You just gave one team a heckuva unfair advantage. Obviously the other team completely stopped playing defense on this play, as Weekend Ref pointed out. The spirit and intent of the rules are to always have a FAIR contest out there. Your solution can hardly be called "fair"- especially when there is some rules language available that will enable you to be fair.
But the original post said this was a High School Varsity fall league /scrimmage last night . I would tend to agree with you if this was a middle school game, but Varsity players should certainly know better. Using your same logic, why penalize the kid who was head's up enough to shoot the ball?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 13, 2004, 10:21am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
[/B]
Using your same logic, why penalize the kid who was head's up enough to shoot the ball? [/B][/QUOTE]Because it's entirely possible that he maybe wouldn't have been able to shoot the ball if the defense hadn't stop playing. If the player hadda missed the shot, would you have gone to an AP instead of giving the ball back to the shooting team? Or maybe give the ball to the team who mighta had a player grab the rebound- even though everyone else on the floor was standing around? Those are supposed to be the rules also, aren't they?

I just think that resetting the play at time of the horn is a fair and equitable way of handling it.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 13, 2004, 11:22am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,792
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Am I the only one who thinks it would be the right thing to do to count the basket and go from there? Neither official "stopped play" after the horn went off, so play goes on. Only a whistle stops the play. The refs were to blame for the situation - game awareness. How many times has a horn gone off inadvertently and you just tell the kids to play on? The rule that was quoted previously is irrelevant because the refs never stopped the play with a whistle.
Yep, either blow the whistle right away and stop play or play on. Make a decisive move and stick with it.

Also, preventative officiating: My pre-game captains meeting is very brief, but I always remind them to "play the whistle, not the horn"... especially in girls games where our state uses a shot clock.

Z
What about all those who advocate NOT blowing the whistle to coincide with the end of a quarter? With there philosoply, the players are expected to know to stop on the quarter ending horn. Unless the players have their eyes glued on the clock, how are they supposed to know if "this" horn is one to stop on or play through.

If a live ball horn disrupts players and give one team an advantage. I'm stopping play, even retroactively.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 13, 2004, 12:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 480
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust

If a live ball horn disrupts players and give one team an advantage. I'm stopping play, even retroactively. [/B]
I can can empathize with the defense that the horn sounded and they stopped play even though there was no whistle. I can support the offense for continuing play citing the "whistle stops the play not the horn" rule. I accept the notion that that FAIR play is paramount. If I believe in conspiracy theories, I can even envision that a horn interruption can be a ploy by the home timekeeper to disrupt the visiting team's offensive opportunity for many different reasons. When I try to apply my judgement to such a problem I find myself ignoring the horn and let the play run its course.

I would never stop the play simply for the confusion that occured regardeless of the effect and I do not see this as an advantage/disadvantage situation. Eventually, there will be a violation (ie. travel, dd, oob) in which the confusion will end or the other team will play the ball and we continue on; I cannot see this as NOT being fair.

Would the mechanic for stopping the play be...tweeeeeet, raised open hand, then a scratching of the head motion?
__________________
"We judge ourselves by what we feel capable of doing, while others judge us by what we have already done."
Chris Z.
Detroit/SE Michigan
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 13, 2004, 01:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally posted by Robmoz

Would the mechanic for stopping the play be...tweeeeeet, raised open hand, then a scratching of the head motion?
They should make this a new mechanic?

Especially for 10 year old girls!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:04am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1