Poor judgement by coach!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Of course it's not acceptable. So T him up.

Again, I'm just asking. What's the basis for considering this flagrant?

Uh, Chuck, I think you just said it right there.

[PGCougar]

I'm speaking as a coach, not an official, but... this kind of action by a coach on the floor is totally unacceptable. The coach (term used lightly) should be tossed for doing something so stupid. Problem is, with so little time left in the game, the tossing isn't punitive enough. Anyway to carry it over to another game? This type of behavior really makes my blood boil.

The language of unacceptable applies here. While I appreciate everyone's thoroughness in this great forum, I just don't see a lot of gray or fuzziness in this case. What would you do if the coach snatched the whistle out of your mouth as you ran past him?

[Edited by PGCougar on Sep 22nd, 2004 at 07:49 AM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by PGCougar
I'm speaking as a coach, not an official, but... this kind of action by a coach on the floor is totally unacceptable. The coach (term used lightly) should be tossed for doing something so stupid. Problem is, with so little time left in the game, the tossing isn't punitive enough. Anyway to carry it over to another game? This type of behavior really makes my blood boil.

The language of unacceptable applies here. While I appreciate everyone's thoroughness in this great forum, I just don't see a lot of gray or fuzziness in this case. What would you do if the coach snatched the whistle out of your mouth as you ran past him?

[Edited by PGCougar on Sep 22nd, 2004 at 07:49 AM]

OhioHSAA rules regarding ejections for unsportsmanlike conduct are as follows:

Example: A varsity coach is sitting on the bench of a freshmen game which is the first game of a freshmen, jr. varsity, varsity tripleheader.

1) The person ejected is disqualified for all competition the rest of the day. That means the varsity coach stays in the lockerroom for the rest of the freshmen game as well as all of the jr. varsity and varsity games.

2) First ejection of the season: Two game suspension at the level of the ejection with the suspension starting with the next day of competition. The varsity coach in our example is suspended from coaching freshmen, jr. varsity, and varsity games, until the freshmen team has played two games. That means if the varsity team plays four game before the freshmen plays two games, the varsity coach is out for those four varsity games.

3) Second ejection of the season, the player or coach is suspended for the rest of the season. If it is a coach that is ejected, the coach and his principal gets to have a personal face-to-face meeting with the Commissioner in his office in Columbus, and you can bet dollars to donuts that is not a automobile ride one, who is a coach, wants to have with his principal. If it is the last game of the season, the OhioHSAA determines player or coach's penalty and the penalty will be imposed during the next sport in which either participate.

So at least in Ohio, even if the ejection is late in the game, the penalties can be very severe.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by eastcoastref
Rule 4-19-4 says a flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or saveage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct.

You don't think reaching out into the playing area and knocking the ball out of a players hands is not unacceptable conduct?

Lots of things are unacceptable conduct. Standing up and yelling at the officials is unacceptable conduct. Staring at an official with the "evil eye" while a player is being removed for the 5th foul is unacceptable conduct. A coach who reaches out and touches the ball is unacceptable conduct. I just don't agree that it's flagrant. It's unsportsmanlike (and stupid) and it's a technical foul.

Z

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by cford
This should not be acceptable!

Originally posted by kgreen
It exceeds all bounds of what a coach can or should do.

Originally posted by eastcoastref
You don't think reaching out into the playing area and knocking the ball out of a players hands is not unacceptable conduct?

Originally posted by Nevada
interfering with the game unacceptable conduct

Originally posted by PGCougar
this kind of action by a coach on the floor is totally unacceptable

You guys are all hanging your hat on the part of the "flagrant" rule that says "unacceptable". But isn't any infraction of the rules unacceptable? We don't accept kids traveling, we don't accept kids rolling the ball away from the official. But those things aren't flagrant. The first is a simple violation. The second is a simple technical for delay.

Even more to the point, if a coach curses at you, says "Aw, that was a BS call!", that's unacceptable behavior. Are you gonna toss him for that? I sincerely hope not, at least at the HS level or above.

You guys all stopped reading the definition too soon. Yes, it says "unacceptable" behavior, but read further and it tells you what makes it flagrant: "If technical, it [the flagrant foul] involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct." (4-19-4)

Can you really tell me that this coach's action was extreme, persistent, vulgar, or abusive? I don't think you can.

So my question (I'm not even trying to make a point here, I'm just asking) is, what makes this action of touching a live ball while it's being dribbled inbounds FLAGRANT? If all you can tell me is that it's unacceptable, I don't think that's good enough, personally.

Originally posted by SamIAm
In my mind, this is very similiar to the 6th player jumping in and blocking a shot/fouling an opponent that came up previously.

I would disagree with that, Sam. In that case, the extra player interfered and prevented a legitimate attempt to win (or tie) the game by the other team. In this case, it's the losing coach who interferes. He's not changing the course of the game. He's just frustrated and does something stupid.

Originally posted by Juulie
I'd call it "making a travesty of the game."

This is the only reply that actually addresses my question, in my opinion. If a coach touching the ball makes a travesty of the game, then I agree that action should be taken. So the question is "Is it a travesty?" I guess I could be convinced, although i'm not convinced yet. And unfortunately, if we agree that it is a travesty, then the penalty is not ejection, it's a forfeit (5-4).

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
You guys all stopped reading the definition too soon. Yes, it says "unacceptable" behavior, but read further and it tells you what makes it flagrant: "If technical, it [the flagrant foul] involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct." (4-19-4)

Can you really tell me that this coach's action was extreme, persistent, vulgar, or abusive? I don't think you can.

So, what you're telling us is that in your opinion a coach who steals the ball from a player during the game has not exhibited extreme behavior?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
So, what you're telling us is that in your opinion a coach who steals the ball from a player during the game has not exhibited extreme behavior?

I'm not telling you anything. I'm just asking a question, remember?

But since you're asking a question, too, I'll answer it. The coach's action is "extreme"ly unusual, but the action itself (striking the ball) is not extreme, no. Striking the player would be extreme. Throwing a chair is extreme. Those things are nowhere near the same level as knocking the ball away from the dribbler, IMO.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I'm not telling you anything. I'm just asking a question, remember?

But since you're asking a question, too, I'll answer it. The coach's action is "extreme"ly unusual, but the action itself (striking the ball) is not extreme, no. Striking the player would be extreme. Throwing a chair is extreme. Those things are nowhere near the same level as knocking the ball away from the dribbler, IMO.

Extremely unusual behavior is not extreme?

Kinda like oral sex aint sex?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

Extremely unusual behavior is not extreme?

Kinda like oral sex aint sex?
[/B][/QUOTE]Tsk, tsk, tsk.....

Another interesting thread degenerates into sophmoric hijinks!

Question: "How do you know if Monica Lewinsky was the head intern?"
Answer: "She had dirt on her knees"?

Bwahahaha.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

So my question (I'm not even trying to make a point here, I'm just asking) is, what makes this action of touching a live ball while it's being dribbled inbounds FLAGRANT?

[/B]

The calling official's judgement. Nothing more and nothing less than that- the same as most any other flagrant foul call.

Call it what you think it should be, and tell anybody that questions you to kiss your butt(except for assignors, evaluators, etc. of course).

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Extremely unusual behavior is not extreme?

No, it's not. It's simply unusual. Touching the ball (which is all the coach did) is not extreme. If I had a beer down at the pub with you at the end of the day at camp, that would be unusual. Extremely unusual. Unheard of. I haven't had a beer in about 15 years. Does that make my action extreme? Hardly. Just because you don't see something everyday doesn't mean that it's extreme when it does happen.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I know that I stated at the beginning of this thread that I would eject the coach for his actions and that Chuck does not think that ejection is required. Some of the posts since Chuck's while not personal in nature are kind of over the top in defending the position of ejecting the coach in this situation.

In this situation, my first inclination would be to eject, but I also believe that Chuck's position can be defended. It is my opinion that this is really a "you had to be there and see it" situation before the decision to eject or not to eject can be made. My own inclination would be to not eject if it were bench personel other that a coach (head or assistant) and to eject if it were a coach (head or assistant). It is a terrible act no matter who commits it, but coaches need to be held to a higher standard of conduct because they are to be leading by example.

MTD, Sr.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The calling official's judgement. Nothing more and nothing less than that- the same as most any other flagrant foul call. [/B]

True enough. But let's make sure that people have a legitimate basis for making the judgment. Any contact foul depends on the official's judgment, but the official must know that parameters of what constitutes a foul before s/he can judge whether the action fits into those parameters.

I'm just trying to find out if people really think this coach's actions fit into the parameters of "extreme, repeated, vulgar or abusive".

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

No, it's not. It's simply unusual. Touching the ball (which is all the coach did) is not extreme. If I had a beer down at the pub with you at the end of the day at camp, that would be unusual. Extremely unusual. Unheard of. I haven't had a beer in about 15 years. Does that make my action extreme? Hardly. Just because you don't see something everyday doesn't mean that it's extreme when it does happen.

First you call the coach's behavior extremely unusual, now you call it simply unusual, and then you close by saying your extremely unusual behavior is not...uhmmm...extreme...???

You getting strategy advice from the Kerry campaign?

Speaking of politics, what's the difference between Bill Clinton and a screwdriver?

A screwdriver turns in screws, and Clinton screws interns.

And here's something else I found on the internet, a particular definition of EXTREME which you might like to look at:

far beyond a norm in quantity or amount or degree

http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-...1&word=extreme

I don't know about where you are, but where I am a coach that knocks the ball away from the dribbler is certainly "far beyond a norm in quantity or amount or degree".

[cford]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
My own inclination would be to not eject if it were bench personel other that a coach (head or assistant) and to eject if it were a coach (head or assistant). It is a terrible act no matter who commits it, but coaches need to be held to a higher standard of conduct because they are to be leading by example.

MTD, Sr.

I completely agree with this statement. If a player had done this then I would probably only have a T and continue on with the game. This would depend on the situation. When a coach does it then IMO it should be an automatic ejection.

ChuckElias
Throwing a chair is extreme. Those things are nowhere near the same level as knocking the ball away from the dribbler, IMO.

Why is throwing a chair (onto the court not at players) anymore extreme then a coach stealing the ball from a player? If a coach threw a chair in the backcourt and the players are in the front court then it hasn't directly effected the play. I guess I don't understand why you think throwing a chair is anymore extreme then a coach stealing a live ball.