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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 18, 2004, 09:34pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
The book says path right?

If we take that literally, then a defender would need to run around a dribbler, that turns AWAY from the basket, and defend what? A back court violation? An OOBs violation?
You still have given me nothing more than your opinion. As you say, the book says PATH. [/B]
Dan, you and BZ both focus on the word "path" (despite Kelvin's assertion that you shouldn't). I think BZ's point is that if being in the dribbler's path means that the the dribbler is moving toward the defender (whether that is toward the basket or toward the backcourt), then you would have to stop the 5-second count any time the dribbler moved away from the defender; b/c the defender would no longer be in the path that the dribbler is moving in.

And then in order to restart the count, the defender would have to run all the way around the dribbler so that the dribbler would again be moving toward him/her.

So "in the path" can't mean that the defender places himself/herself in a position so that the dribbler is moving toward him/her. I see the logic of his position.

The most likely alternative to that meaning of "in the path" is that it means "between the dribbler and the basket". Makes sense to me, if you're going to focus on "in the path"; although personally I tend to agree that "in the path" really doesn't matter for purposes of being closely guarded.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 18, 2004, 09:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
The book says path right?

If we take that literally, then a defender would need to run around a dribbler, that turns AWAY from the basket, and defend what? A back court violation? An OOBs violation?
You still have given me nothing more than your opinion. As you say, the book says PATH.
Dan, you and BZ both focus on the word "path" (despite Kelvin's assertion that you shouldn't). I think BZ's point is that if being in the dribbler's path means that the the dribbler is moving toward the defender (whether that is toward the basket or toward the backcourt), then you would have to stop the 5-second count any time the dribbler moved away from the defender; b/c the defender would no longer be in the path that the dribbler is moving in.

And then in order to restart the count, the defender would have to run all the way around the dribbler so that the dribbler would again be moving toward him/her.

So "in the path" can't mean that the defender places himself/herself in a position so that the dribbler is moving toward him/her. I see the logic of his position.

The most likely alternative to that meaning of "in the path" is that it means "between the dribbler and the basket". Makes sense to me, if you're going to focus on "in the path"; although personally I tend to agree that "in the path" really doesn't matter for purposes of being closely guarded. [/B]
Thank you that is exactly what I've been saying.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 18, 2004, 09:44pm
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Lightbulb Deosn't matter?

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
...although personally I tend to agree that "in the path" really doesn't matter for purposes of being closely guarded.
With regard to guarding position, "in the path" is part of the definition in NCAA and NFHS, isn't it?
mick



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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 18, 2004, 10:52pm
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[/B][/QUOTE]

There is no play I can think of where you have a charge where the defender is not in the path to the basket. Even when A1 is behind the backboard and jumps back into B1, A1's path was still toward B1 and the basket. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry but I have seen them. I ve seen them when offense has been forced back to mid court one way or another, or going toward sideline...

Many Screens ( covered by rule 4 with the "path") do not happen with defense between the basket and player. Traps in low corners with screens set to get out to reset at midcourt....Everybody is moving away from the basket...

You get players airborne and not moving to basket..

Most of the time they are moving to basket but there are enough plays that arent...

Trust me these kind of plays can and do happen. I ve called them
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 18, 2004, 11:03pm
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Re: Deosn't matter?

Quote:
Originally posted by mick
With regard to guarding position, "in the path" is part of the definition in NCAA and NFHS, isn't it?
Hmmm, yeah. I was thinking of a situation where the defender is "guarding" the dribbler from the side, trying to force him one way or the other. . .

Hmmmm.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 09:48am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra


You are not guarding if the dribbler is passed you.
Like Camron said, depends on what direction the dribbler is going.

I explained it in an earlier post. The path is TOWARD the basket. A defender that is behind a dribbler moving AWAY from the basket is still in the path to the basket.

Once the ball is in the front court the offense's objective is to score, so a defender is guarding if they are in the path between their opponent and the basket.
Chuck, what I objected to was this post by BZ, where he claims "in the path" is irrelevant compared to being between the dribbler & the basket, specifically when the dribbler is moving AWAY from the basket. I asked him for a rule or case play to back this up. He couldn't. Neither, apparently could you.

That's all.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 09:52am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra

...
In a play where the dribbler stops and turns back away from the defender, the defender is no longer in the path, but the count does not end, correct?

Can't see what rule basis you have for continuing your count in this case. I've asked you 2 or 3 times to provide one... :shrug:
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra


You are not guarding if the dribbler is passed you.
Like Camron said, depends on what direction the dribbler is going.

I explained it in an earlier post. The path is TOWARD the basket. A defender that is behind a dribbler moving AWAY from the basket is still in the path to the basket.

Once the ball is in the front court the offense's objective is to score, so a defender is guarding if they are in the path between their opponent and the basket.
Chuck, what I objected to was this post by BZ, where he claims "in the path" is irrelevant compared to being between the dribbler & the basket, specifically when the dribbler is moving AWAY from the basket. I asked him for a rule or case play to back this up. He couldn't. Neither, apparently could you.

That's all.
Nice job of avoiding. I explained it, just the way I BET you'd call it in a game. Go back and read the post that has 4-23-ART 2 and 3 mentioned. If you still can't understand after that, then you are denser than a rock.

THAT'S ALL!
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra

...
In a play where the dribbler stops and turns back away from the defender, the defender is no longer in the path, but the count does not end, correct?

Can't see what rule basis you have for continuing your count in this case. I've asked you 2 or 3 times to provide one... :shrug:
So, Dan, let's say A1 (dribbler) is standing (dribbling) with B1 between A1 and the basket. (a) Now A1 backs up a step, but is still facing the basket, B1 still between. (b) Now A1 turns 90 degrees left, and dribbles across the top of the key, B1 still between. (c) Now A1 turns another 90 degrees left, and now is facing toward backcourt, with B1 still between A1 and the basket. (d) Now A1 takes two or three steps toward the division line, with B1 still between.

At what point, if any, do you stop the 5 second count?

Chuck, where do you stop, if any?

BZ, how 'bout you?

Oh, and give a rules reference, too.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra

...
In a play where the dribbler stops and turns back away from the defender, the defender is no longer in the path, but the count does not end, correct?

Can't see what rule basis you have for continuing your count in this case. I've asked you 2 or 3 times to provide one... :shrug:
Try 4-10 and 9.10.C. It does not say in the rule that LGP is lost if A1 goes away from B1, now does it? In the situation I described, you do stop your count? Wow, you are probably the only one then.

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 19th, 2004 at 11:08 AM]
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 10:05am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra

...
In a play where the dribbler stops and turns back away from the defender, the defender is no longer in the path, but the count does not end, correct?

Can't see what rule basis you have for continuing your count in this case. I've asked you 2 or 3 times to provide one... :shrug:
So, Dan, let's say A1 (dribbler) is standing (dribbling) with B1 between A1 and the basket. (a) Now A1 backs up a step, but is still facing the basket, B1 still between. (b) Now A1 turns 90 degrees left, and dribbles across the top of the key, B1 still between. (c) Now A1 turns another 90 degrees left, and now is facing toward backcourt, with B1 still between A1 and the basket. (d) Now A1 takes two or three steps toward the division line, with B1 still between.

At what point, if any, do you stop the 5 second count?

Chuck, where do you stop, if any?

BZ, how 'bout you?

Oh, and give a rules reference, too.
If A1 has put more than 6 feet between him/herself and B1.
4-10 and 9.10.C .

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 19th, 2004 at 11:07 AM]
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 10:10am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
In a play where the dribbler stops and turns back away from the defender, the defender is no longer in the path, but the count does not end, correct?
Can't see what rule basis you have for continuing your count in this case. I've asked you 2 or 3 times to provide one... :shrug:
Ok, I want to pose a situation even simpler than juulie's, Dan. A1 is dribbling the ball near midcourt, closely guarded by B1, who is directly between A1 and Team A's basket. A1 takes three steps forward toward B1. B1 takes three steps backwards, but remains within six feet of A1 and remains between A1 and the basket. Now A1 takes three steps backwards, back toward midcourt, away from (but still facing) his basket. B1 also takes three steps forward so that he is continuously within six feet of A1 and maintains his position between A1 and the basket.

Are you saying that when A1 takes those three steps back, the official should terminate the closely guarded count? And if yes, then is it terminated b/c B1 is no longer in A1's path?

It sounds to me like you're saying that the count is terminated in this situation, but I want to be completely clear on your position on this before I get any more confused.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 10:10am
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And returning to the original question, here's another hypo.

A1 is standing at the top of the key, dribbling, with B1 very closely guarding, and between A1 and the basket. A1 ducks and feints right. As A1 leans right, B1 does also, giving A1 space to lean forward and begin a drive. (a) A1 gets head and shoulders past and (b) steps forward and to the left with the left foot, (c) now having most of her body past B1 toward the basket, B1 still has her back to the basket. (d) Now A1 steps forward with the right foot. B1 begins to turn, but no longer has any claim to being between A1 and the basket.

Where do you stop the 5-second count? Give rules reference, please.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 05:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
And returning to the original question, here's another hypo.

A1 is standing at the top of the key, dribbling, with B1 very closely guarding, and between A1 and the basket. A1 ducks and feints right. As A1 leans right, B1 does also, giving A1 space to lean forward and begin a drive. (a) A1 gets head and shoulders past and (b) steps forward and to the left with the left foot, (c) now having most of her body past B1 toward the basket, B1 still has her back to the basket. (d) Now A1 steps forward with the right foot. B1 begins to turn, but no longer has any claim to being between A1 and the basket.

Where do you stop the 5-second count? Give rules reference, please.
I'm ending my count at A to B in that situation.10-6-ART 2.
LGP is lost at that point, so no count unless B1 re-establishes LGP.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 19, 2004, 05:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
In a play where the dribbler stops and turns back away from the defender, the defender is no longer in the path, but the count does not end, correct?
Can't see what rule basis you have for continuing your count in this case. I've asked you 2 or 3 times to provide one... :shrug:
Ok, I want to pose a situation even simpler than juulie's, Dan. A1 is dribbling the ball near midcourt, closely guarded by B1, who is directly between A1 and Team A's basket. A1 takes three steps forward toward B1. B1 takes three steps backwards, but remains within six feet of A1 and remains between A1 and the basket. Now A1 takes three steps backwards, back toward midcourt, away from (but still facing) his basket. B1 also takes three steps forward so that he is continuously within six feet of A1 and maintains his position between A1 and the basket.

Are you saying that when A1 takes those three steps back, the official should terminate the closely guarded count? And if yes, then is it terminated b/c B1 is no longer in A1's path?

It sounds to me like you're saying that the count is terminated in this situation, but I want to be completely clear on your position on this before I get any more confused.
If closely guarded was to be called the way it looks like he is interpreting it, all the offensive player would have to do to end the count is turn around. They could pivot for 8 minutes in one spot.
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