Closely Guarded

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra


You are not guarding if the dribbler is passed you.

Like Camron said, depends on what direction the dribbler is going.

[Stat-Man]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Juulie - I think this coach probably was referring to an old rule regarding "penetration" (and yes - I've heard all the jokes). I don't remember all the particulars of the rule, but if a team was behind, they had to "attack the basket" on offense. There were some hash marks on the side as guidance.

I remeber that rule. Never did understand it when I was in HS. All I know is they repealed it at some point between 1991 and 1994 because in 90-91, I was a HS Senior and it was still a rule. Come 93-94 it wasn't because at our state's AAU Final 4, a winning team was stalling and the losing team didn't come out on defense. The offensive team had the ball for like the first 3 minutes of the third quarter.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Like Camron said, depends on what direction the dribbler is going.

I explained it in an earlier post. The path is TOWARD the basket. A defender that is behind a dribbler moving AWAY from the basket is still in the path to the basket.

Once the ball is in the front court the offense's objective is to score, so a defender is guarding if they are in the path between their opponent and the basket.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Legal Guarding Position has nothing to do with closely guarded violation.

I know that one part of the rules says guarding is in the path...but path to what? path to basket? or is it defining Legal guarding position when there is contact and a foul? or is this definition also applied to closely guarded?

If the player is moving from sideline to sideline (facing sideline) then the player has to be in front of him cutting him off from going to the sideline? I dont think that was the intent... It would be for a charge but not for 5 second count. He could be agressively guarding him from the side...(between the dribbler and the basket and not in his path"

Are you telling me that a dribbler cannot be guarded from the side? Because you can guard from the side look at every fast break down the floor. ( not in path but still being guarded..(but does not have legal guarding position...

Does defense have to be between player and basket? I do not see a requirement for that unless in the path means specifically that.

So we are saying that if you have a quick guard dribbling the ball and a defensive player on him (not in his path)but defender is guarding the guy at midcourt forcing the dribbler to change and move around that this is not a 5 second count? Clearly the intent is to keep the offensive from just dribbling the ball around the defense...when the defense is out there trying to get the ball.

I can buy that chasing from behind is probably not closely guarded but if you recall

closely guarded was a point of emphasis in 2000-2001 and

This year there is the new major editorial change that

"Clarifies that a closely guarded situation occurs when the player holding or dribbling the ball is continuously guarded by any opponent who is within six feet"

Clearly when there is a screen and one defender gets picked off, another can be there to keep guarding and may not be infront of the path the dribbler has chosen.

The idea of the 5 second count is to encourage Good Defense. If the D is agressive and forcing the play then the 5 second count should be on...

Kelvin, I don't understand your point here. I agree that LGP doesn't have to be in front of the dribbler, it can be at the side. I don't think anyone said otherwise.

My question is where in the rule book to find the cconcept that the 5 second count ends when the dribbler gets past the guard. It makes sense to say that if legal guarding position means the guard is "in the path" of the dribbler, and then the dribbler's path is taking her away from the guard, that the guard is no longer guarding, and the count should end.

[Kelvin green]

I dont think you will find the concept in the rule book that actually states that once the the dribbler is past the guard that the count stops. Generally it does but it is judgement not rule...

The rule says closely guarded within six feet. I am curious to see how they are going to rewrite the section this year....

I think that we are taking the path thing way out of context for the 5 second count.

The idea of "path" must be related to guarding for contact. (Especially given the context of Rule 4, where it is located, etc... I) f we were to interpret path as between offense and basket (as suggested above) that means you could only have a charging foul while the offense is moving to basket, and we know that is incorrect.

Path is always established by the moving players. Path could be away from basket to reset on play, could be to the sideline, could be to mid court. Player in those would being moving directly away from the basket...

I personally think that we read too much into this. The goal is to reward good defense and to force the offense to pass to others on the team (prevent one person from dribbling or holding the ball too long while he is being defended) The intent of the rule is to force play and not allow a team that has a super dribbler to dribble around taking time off the clock while defense is trying to make a play on him/her.

If we take the "path" thing too far a player could not guard from behind or from the side. I dont think that was the intent of this rule.

I'll give you a couple of examples where I think the concept of "path" is shaky at best...

Remember closely guarded aslo applies to those holding the ball.


A1 has ball. A2 sets up between A1 and basket for a screen. B2 sets up to A1's left and B1 sets up to A1's right, niether one are between A1 and the basket. Yet guaranteed we would start the count.


A1 is dribbling. B2 is matching stride for stride and for whatever reason B2 is on the outside of B2 but is still guarding, forcing the play, harassing A1, etc. are we going to take that defense away because he is not between A1 and the basket?

There are plenty of plays where defense may not be between the offense and the basket yet are meeting the intent of the rule.

At some point in time we have to use our judgement to determine if player is being guarded. If that means player broke free to basket (if gets ahead of one defender remember there may be another one there NFHS and NCAA rules differ here I believe) and no other defender around he may not be guarded at that point.

How many times if A1 is dribbling and B1 comes out just stands there at about 5-6 feet, not looking like he is really forcing the action, do we not start the count? I suggest lots...Defender is in the "path" and within six feet so we have to start our count right? We dont do that...

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
A1 is dribbling. B2 is matching stride for stride and for whatever reason B2 is on the outside of B2 but is still guarding, forcing the play, harassing A1, etc. are we going to take that defense away because he is not between A1 and the basket?

Well, Ive never seen this, but frankly, if I do, I'm NOT going to count. I suppose mostly I wouldn't count because the dribbler would be headed for the basket, and there wouldn't be time.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I explained it in an earlier post. The path is TOWARD the basket. A defender that is behind a dribbler moving AWAY from the basket is still in the path to the basket.

Once the ball is in the front court the offense's objective is to score, so a defender is guarding if they are in the path between their opponent and the basket.

According to the fed "Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent." Closely guarding ..."occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team's frontcourt, is guarded by an opponent who is with 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball."

NCAA men's is the same. NCAA women's do not apply here since there's no closely guarding for them while dribbling.

I'm not sure where you get your interp from, under the rules.

Care to explain?

[Adam]

To me, it's rather simple. "In the path" means in the path of where the dribbler wants to go. If the dribbler is trying to go sideways, then "in the path" can be either directly in front of her or between her and the basket (based on the assumption that the goal of the offense is to score a basket from as closely as possible). If the defense is beat (Can't define it, but I know it when I see it) then my count restarts.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

According to the fed "Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent." Closely guarding ..."occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team's frontcourt, is guarded by an opponent who is with 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball."

NCAA men's is the same. NCAA women's do not apply here since there's no closely guarding for them while dribbling.

I'm not sure where you get your interp from, under the rules.

Care to explain?

My interp fits with how 99.9% of officials judge closely guarded. If you don't include path, as between the offensive player and the basket, there will be a lot of 5 second violations in the middle of lay ups!

You gonna keep your count if the dribbler is past the defender, attacking the basket, but this CHASING defender is within 6 feet?

The intent of the rule is to keep the game from becoming actionless or a Curly Neal/And One dribbling show. It is to reward GOOD defense, but not BAD defense.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

My interp fits with how 99.9% of officials judge closely guarded.

What?

99.9% of officials call the jump stop wrong.

I have to call it wrong too?

If you don't include path, as between the offensive player and the basket, there will be a lot of 5 second violations in the middle of lay ups!

WTF? :shrug:

You gonna keep your count if the dribbler is past the defender, attacking the basket, but this CHASING defender is within 6 feet?

Where did I say this? In your play the defender is no longer IN THE PATH.

The intent of the rule is to keep the game from becoming actionless or a Curly Neal/And One dribbling show. It is to reward GOOD defense, but not BAD defense.

Sigh...once again WTF? You telling us that ncaa women are happy to allow thier game to become an actionless blah blah blah?

The intent of the rule is to consider closely guarded when the defender is IN THE PATH of the player with the ball. The rules, AS WRITTEN, say nothing about the defender being between the player and the basket. Just says he needs to be in the path.

Obviously you don't have a rule or case play to back up your interpretation so I guess we're done.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

What?

99.9% of officials call the jump stop wrong.

I have to call it wrong too?

WTF? :shrug:

Where did I say this? In your play the defender is no longer IN THE PATH.

Sigh...once again WTF? You telling us that ncaa women are happy to allow thier game to become an actionless blah blah blah?

The intent of the rule is to consider closely guarded when the defender is IN THE PATH of the player with the ball. The rules, AS WRITTEN, say nothing about the defender being between the player and the basket. Just says he needs to be in the path.

Obviously you don't have a rule or case play to back up your interpretation so I guess we're done.

I can't make it any easier. I'm sorry if you can't understand something this simple.

The book says path right?

If we take that literally, then a defender would need to run around a dribbler, that turns AWAY from the basket, and defend what? A back court violation? An OOBs violation?

Once the ball is in the front court, what is the normal objective of the offense? To score at their basket.

What is the defense's objective? To stop them from scoring.
Any defender that is even with or between the offensive player, with the ball, and the basket is IN THE PATH. The direction the offensive player is facing does not matter.

Is it sinking in yet?

Remember if we take path literally, you can not call 5 seconds on a player that dribbles toward the basket then turns towards the division line with the defender now BEHIND them, because they are no longer guarding in the PATH. The same way it's not on a drive to the basket, RIGHT?

NCAA women have a shot clock, so it does not benefit the offense to hold the ball, now does it?

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 18th, 2004 at 06:52 PM]

[Kelvin green]

Path is not toward the basket. Never has. never will be. Never Never Never... If this were the case you cannot call a charge unless defender is between offense and basket. Offensive player sets the path

I cannot find my most recent books however Case NUmber 9.10.1 from the 2002/2003 casebook

Team A has the ball in their own front court. B1 stands within within 6ft and facing A1 while A1 is holding ball near division line. Ruling In 5 seconds this would be a violation. as soon as B1 has assumed guarding position, both feet on the fllor, facing the opponent, no other specific requirement is in effect. .... dont see path there! In fact they state there is no other specific requirement except to face the player and be within 6 feet!



I am going to be anal about this one... I will concede that guarding is to place the body in the path to get as the rules will call it INITIAL GUARDING position. But nowhere is path defined as between player and basket. If you take this to a logical conclusion then

Article 4 would then read ---If the opponent with the ball is airborne the guard must have obtained legal position BETWEEN THE PLAYER AND THE BASKET before the player left the floor.

Article 5b would then read The guard must BE BETWEEN THE PLAYER AND THE BASKET an must give the time/distance to avoid contact (screening)

It doesnt imply or mean that at all!

We can nitpick the semantics. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree!

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Path is not toward the basket. Never has. never will be. Never Never Never... If this were the case you cannot call a charge unless defender is between offense and basket. Offensive player sets the path

I cannot find my most recent books however Case NUmber 9.10.1 from the 2002/2003 casebook

Team A has the ball in their own front court. B1 stands within within 6ft and facing A1 while A1 is holding ball near division line. Ruling In 5 seconds this would be a violation. as soon as B1 has assumed guarding position, both feet on the fllor, facing the opponent, no other specific requirement is in effect. .... dont see path there! In fact they state there is no other specific requirement except to face the player and be within 6 feet!



I am going to be anal about this one... I will concede that guarding is to place the body in the path to get as the rules will call it INITIAL GUARDING position. But nowhere is path defined as between player and basket. If you take this to a logical conclusion then

Article 4 would then read ---If the opponent with the ball is airborne the guard must have obtained legal position BETWEEN THE PLAYER AND THE BASKET before the player left the floor.

Article 5b would then read The guard must BE BETWEEN THE PLAYER AND THE BASKET an must give the time/distance to avoid contact (screening)

It doesnt imply or mean that at all!

We can nitpick the semantics. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree!

There is no play I can think of where you have a charge where the defender is not in the path to the basket. Even when A1 is behind the backboard and jumps back into B1, A1's path was still toward B1 and the basket.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I can't make it any easier. I'm sorry if you can't understand something this simple.

The book says path right?

If we take that literally, then a defender would need to run around a dribbler, that turns AWAY from the basket, and defend what? A back court violation? An OOBs violation?

Once the ball is in the front court, what is the normal objective of the offense? To score at their basket.

What is the defense's objective? To stop them from scoring.
Any defender that is even with or between the offensive player, with the ball, and the basket is IN THE PATH. The direction the offensive player is facing does not matter.

Is it sinking in yet?

Remember if we take path literally, you can not call 5 seconds on a player that dribbles toward the basket then turns towards the division line with the defender now BEHIND them, because they are no longer guarding in the PATH. The same way it's not on a drive to the basket, RIGHT?

NCAA women have a shot clock, so it does not benefit the offense to hold the ball, now does it?

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 18th, 2004 at 06:52 PM]

You still have given me nothing more than your opinion. As you say, the book says PATH. Find me where it backs up your interp. That's pretty simple, aint it?

BTw, NCAA mens have a shot clock too.

[blindzebra]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

What?

99.9% of officials call the jump stop wrong.

I have to call it wrong too?

WTF? :shrug:

Where did I say this? In your play the defender is no longer IN THE PATH.

Sigh...once again WTF? You telling us that ncaa women are happy to allow thier game to become an actionless blah blah blah?

The intent of the rule is to consider closely guarded when the defender is IN THE PATH of the player with the ball. The rules, AS WRITTEN, say nothing about the defender being between the player and the basket. Just says he needs to be in the path.

Obviously you don't have a rule or case play to back up your interpretation so I guess we're done.

I can't make it any easier. I'm sorry if you can't understand something this simple.

The book says path right?

If we take that literally, then a defender would need to run around a dribbler, that turns AWAY from the basket, and defend what? A back court violation? An OOBs violation?

Once the ball is in the front court, what is the normal objective of the offense? To score at their basket.

What is the defense's objective? To stop them from scoring.
Any defender that is even with or between the offensive player, with the ball, and the basket is IN THE PATH. The direction the offensive player is facing does not matter.

Is it sinking in yet?

Remember if we take path literally, you can not call 5 seconds on a player that dribbles toward the basket then turns towards the division line with the defender now BEHIND them, because they are no longer guarding in the PATH. The same way it's not on a drive to the basket, RIGHT?

NCAA women have a shot clock, so it does not benefit the offense to hold the ball, now does it?

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 19th, 2004 at 06:33 PM]