T'ed Up?

[ref18]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaliix

Even easier ones.

The player dribbles a ball with both hands.

A defender kicks the ball thinking he is playing soccer.

A player dribbles the ball picks it up and then starts to dribble it again with no one else having touched the ball.

Again, this is only a partial list... :-)




last time i checked, a double dribble and the intentional kicks weren't fouls.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ref18

Originally posted by Kaliix

Even easier ones.

The player dribbles a ball with both hands.

A defender kicks the ball thinking he is playing soccer.

A player dribbles the ball picks it up and then starts to dribble it again with no one else having touched the ball.

Again, this is only a partial list... :-)




last time i checked, a double dribble and the intentional kicks weren't fouls.

If you check you'll see that it's perfectly legal to dribble with both hands at times.

[ref18]

i think we can say we now have 2 bballcoach types on this board.

[ace]

I read like 4 messages and im going to say...


If a middle school coach is going to get on me about consistency I'm going to give him the biggest smile I can and try not to be a total smart-*** with some sort of comment. If he calls me out infront of a gym then yeah.... I'll hit ya for it. I told a coach, and I felt bad for this... "If you'd spend less time hollaring at me and more time encouraging your kids you might not have ended up in this position where your down by 14 with 2 minutes to go."

And my partner.... the sly devil he is... jokingly added.... and we're not bailbondsmen either. She laughed and it was all good.

[JRutledge]

I am getting in on this late. WOW!!!

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
What I post here is what I believe in. That's true wheher Kaliix, or anyone else reponding to my posts for that matter, likes it or not. We have coaches that come to this forum on a regular basis- HawksCoach, PA Coach, CYO Butch, etc., because they know that a good, working knowledge of the rules is gonna give them a big advantage over the bozos like Kaliix who think that working the officials is the only way to go. These guys that have been coming here for a while don't just give lip-service to teaching sportsmanship, but they actually believe in it. I respect them greatly for that, and I think that they know that. Note that this certainly doesn't mean that we agree on everything either. Coaches like Kaliix do not have my respect, will never have my respect, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be two-faced and pretend that they do.

2) No, I certainly didn't assume ANYTHING about the officials that did the game that Kaliix is referring to. I commented on Kaliix's actions the way that he himself wrote about- his yapping, working the officials constantly, etc. Those actions are WRONG, no matter how good or bad the officials actually were. You seem to be the one that is hinting that they were incompetent officials. How exactly did you know that? And what have you ever done about the incompetent officials that you worked with anyway? Did you ever try to help those individuals become better officials? And you also just called some your fellow officials a detriment to officiating basketball? And then you're saying that I talked too harshly about Kaliix? Oh my! And I don't think that I'd really better comment any further on that. If I did, this thread would disappear in a hurry.

And as for your point that more officials quit because of parents than because of coaches, that is a complete reversal from I've been hearing from the officials in my area that are hanging up their whistles. They expected to hear crap from the parents when they started officiating. They didn't expect to hear the same sh*t from a middle-school girls' coach who should have been teaching sportsmanship along with the basketball skills. Iow, I don't agree with you on that one either.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 10:06 PM]

Come on now JR, stop holding back...tell us how you REALLY feel! (That way I can copy and paste it and use it in my training classes I lead)

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I wish, cingram - I've even been criticized by evaluators for this one . . .

That is why I said usually... I have let some go because of the context (they weren't PO'd at me but frusterated that they missed a layup or something) but I have called others (especially when a player not agreeing with the call tossed the ball over my head into the corner) - that one is the no-brainer.

[Kaliix]

To those who tried to give me an honest answer, even though you didn't agree, thank you.

I wasn't sure I should have been T'ed up, but in reading the litany of posts this has generated and in giving some thought to the constructive criticism that my comments have generated, I see now why I received a technical foul and why it was deserved.

To those of you who think that a coach shouldn't try and talk to the referees, we are just going to have to disagree on that one. If you don't like the term working the ref's fine. I have seen coaches that have rode the ref's all game and I don't particularly like them either. When I talk about conversing with the ref's, I mean doing in a nice respectful manner while picking my spots and getting them to consider the manner in which they judge calls. I have seen good examples of conversing with(reading working) the ref's, performed with respect and sportsmanship by excellent coaches who could manage to coach a game, carry on a pleasant conversation with a referee at the same time and manage to get the ref's to atleast consider their future calls.

I umpire, so I do know a bit about having to make calls. I personally think that refereeing a basketball game is probably the hardest job in all officiating. Most calls are judgement type calls. To be able to make those kinds of constant judgements, while keeping a game going (read have some flow to it instead of being bogged down with whistles) and doing it in a fair and even manner that is equitable to both sides, is a terribly difficult endeavor. I have much respect for those who manage to do it well. It is not easy.

To those who resorted to name calling and snide remarks, I can honestly say that I feel bad for you. While you may not have agreed with what I was saying, there is no room in intelligent discourse for that kind of behaviour. You can vehemently disagree with someone with out making personal remarks or resorting to juvenile sarcasm and snide comments. To say that you would react one way on a message board but differently on the court is, at best, specious. You likely deserve all the comments, attitude and remarks that your pompous, cantankerous, holier than thou attitude get you while on the court.

[reffish]

Look at the college semi-final between Duke and UConn
Note Caron Butlers last second shot and foul call three years back against NC State
Unless your Shaq
Coach, why are you trying to compare your middle school girls to NC State and Shaq? The rules are different at each level and calls are made differently at each level. You need to compare to last year's tournament games in your middle school district. That is where you need to be. You can't work the refs at this level. Even if you paid to play.
Refs are human, and each game will be called as each human sees fit. Differently, each time. And just a helpful hint. To get the ref's ear, be polite and respectful with questionable calls. That amount of respect will go a long way. But, then again, teaching an old dog new tricks.....This forun is about officiating, and the rules interpretations, not telling us how we should call a game and compare middle school games to DI and NBA. That is a far reach.

[Kaliix]

I only offered an example of a college game to reference something that people here might actually be able to relate to. If I offered an example of a play that happened locally, you really wouldn't get the reference now would you???

The Shaq line actually had a ;-) after it. That clearly implies a little joke, not a comparison of middle school to the NBA.

Reading comprehension skills are a wonderful thing.

Originally posted by reffish
Look at the college semi-final between Duke and UConn
Note Caron Butlers last second shot and foul call three years back against NC State
Unless your Shaq
Coach, why are you trying to compare your middle school girls to NC State and Shaq? The rules are different at each level and calls are made differently at each level. You need to compare to last year's tournament games in your middle school district. That is where you need to be. You can't work the refs at this level. Even if you paid to play.
Refs are human, and each game will be called as each human sees fit. Differently, each time. And just a helpful hint. To get the ref's ear, be polite and respectful with questionable calls. That amount of respect will go a long way. But, then again, teaching an old dog new tricks.....This forun is about officiating, and the rules interpretations, not telling us how we should call a game and compare middle school games to DI and NBA. That is a far reach.

[CommonSenseRef]

Sorry, BktBallRef. When I said parents, I meant the people sitting in the bleachers. And I realize that quite often a parent is the coach. I often feel sorry for the kid on the team whose dad is the coach, because of how the coach acts. I have had to clear a gym 3 times to finish ballgames because the parents were so out of control. And you know, every time, after we did that, the players played better and stopped yappinÂ’, coaches coached, and the game was a breeze to officiate. My experience is that the more the parents yell, the kids often follow suit on the court, and the play goes downhill.

I never said that there havenÂ’t been officials quit because of bad coaches. It is just my opinion after doing hundreds of these type of games that parents have more of a negative effect on young officials than the coaches.

BktBallRef, can you please show me where Kaliix took the low road? Was it before or after he was called a Bozo?

Jurassic – All I’m saying is that in this world there are teachers that have no business teaching, there are doctors that have no business practicing, and there are officials that have no business officiating. I am not talking about anyone specifically, never did. But this is reality. I have no idea who these officials were, and never said they were good or bad.

And yes, I do help out younger officials. Actually, that is one of the aspects of officiating I enjoy most. Giving tips, and guidance to make these officials feel and act more confident on the court is awesome. I also talk with them about how to deal with coaches on the sideline, because coaches are a part of the game. I donÂ’t talk about dealing with parents, because they are NOT part of the game, eventhough many think they are.

I find it interesting that the rule books give officials many alternatives/penalties for dealing with coaches (directly), and none for parents (directly). Yet the officials in your area expect, and are OK with, taking crap from those they cannot deal with directly, yet quit because of a coach that they could deal with directly.

[ref18]

Originally posted by Kaliix
To those who tried to give me an honest answer, even though you didn't agree, thank you.

I wasn't sure I should have been T'ed up, but in reading the litany of posts this has generated and in giving some thought to the constructive criticism that my comments have generated, I see now why I received a technical foul and why it was deserved.

To those of you who think that a coach shouldn't try and talk to the referees, we are just going to have to disagree on that one. If you don't like the term working the ref's fine. I have seen coaches that have rode the ref's all game and I don't particularly like them either. When I talk about conversing with the ref's, I mean doing in a nice respectful manner while picking my spots and getting them to consider the manner in which they judge calls. I have seen good examples of conversing with(reading working) the ref's, performed with respect and sportsmanship by excellent coaches who could manage to coach a game, carry on a pleasant conversation with a referee at the same time and manage to get the ref's to atleast consider their future calls.

1. Questioning the referees integrity is never nice or respectful.

2. At that level, you riding the refs will rub off on your players. Be a role model, take the call and move on.

3. Here's a hint for future games, ask a question based on the rules, not based on the judgement of the official. The official's judgement is what he/she uses to tell them what to call. It will not change by you yelling, so you shouldn't. ex: Mr. Referee, could you please explain to me why you called that a block??

Ask it nicely, and most times you will recieve an answer, however, don't ask during a live ball situation, because the official is trying to focus on the game and not you.

I think that's all i have to say for now

[ref18]

Originally posted by CommonSenseRef
Sorry, BktBallRef. When I said parents, I meant the people sitting in the bleachers. And I realize that quite often a parent is the coach. I often feel sorry for the kid on the team whose dad is the coach, because of how the coach acts. I have had to clear a gym 3 times to finish ballgames because the parents were so out of control. And you know, every time, after we did that, the players played better and stopped yappinÂ’, coaches coached, and the game was a breeze to officiate. My experience is that the more the parents yell, the kids often follow suit on the court, and the play goes downhill.

I never said that there havenÂ’t been officials quit because of bad coaches. It is just my opinion after doing hundreds of these type of games that parents have more of a negative effect on young officials than the coaches.

BktBallRef, can you please show me where Kaliix took the low road? Was it before or after he was called a Bozo?

Jurassic – All I’m saying is that in this world there are teachers that have no business teaching, there are doctors that have no business practicing, and there are officials that have no business officiating. I am not talking about anyone specifically, never did. But this is reality. I have no idea who these officials were, and never said they were good or bad.

And yes, I do help out younger officials. Actually, that is one of the aspects of officiating I enjoy most. Giving tips, and guidance to make these officials feel and act more confident on the court is awesome. I also talk with them about how to deal with coaches on the sideline, because coaches are a part of the game. I donÂ’t talk about dealing with parents, because they are NOT part of the game, eventhough many think they are.

I find it interesting that the rule books give officials many alternatives/penalties for dealing with coaches (directly), and none for parents (directly). Yet the officials in your area expect, and are OK with, taking crap from those they cannot deal with directly, yet quit because of a coach that they could deal with directly.

My biggest piece of advice, if you can't take the BS from parents, officiating isn't for you, because they're never going to stop. As a younger official myself, I've learned to deal with it. I ignore them. And commonsenseref, you are absolutely right with your comments about the parents being the main cause of the problems, I've had a pissed off kid tell her mom to shut up with regards to yelling at the refs because he was embarassed by her comments. You need a thick skin, and worry about what's going on in the game and not the stands, because you're there to referee, not police the parents.

[Brad]

First of all, I do think that we need to back off of the "bozo" comments -- let's maintain some level of respect around here.

Second, I think that the continuing problem between coaches and officials is that they want us to see things their way and we want them to see things our way. That will never happen.

However, we should at least listen to each other!

It reminds me of something that happened to me at a camp this past weekend. Both of my partners call a foul on the way to the basket (whether it was or not is not the point of this discussion ) and the ball was blocked while it was still on its way up, but after it had hit the backboard.

The coach started complaining that it was goaltending, stating "The ball hit the glass!" Since this tournament was being played under high school rules, I quickly explained "Coach, that's an NBA rule."

He did not even listen to me and started repeating himself. So, I stepped closed (from table opposite) and said louder, "Coach, that is an NBA rule!"

He doesn't listen AGAIN and, in addition, his PAB assistant coach pops his head out and starts yelling about a goal tend also!

So, finally, I step even closer and say, "COACH, THAT IS A NBA RULE -- WE ARE PLAYING BY HIGH SCHOOL RULES -- IT IS NOT A GOALTEND. THAT'S IT!"

I think that he finally got the message, although I'm sure that he still thinks that I was wrong!

Listen before you speak!

[reffish]

I believe that there is no reference from D1 to middle school girls. There is no need to reference to anything, other than your game. And the message still is be respectful and not call out the official during the game. Period. You have not gained that respect from any official, yet. Work on it.

In reference to commonsenseref's comment that parents are the cause, I say that the coach is the root of attitude. If parents see coachs riding and blasting refs, parents are quicker to jump the ref. And the kids will follow the coach on the court with that attitude. The coach sets the stage of attitude on the court.

Kaliix, I'm sure you had a tough game, but don't let this one game get you rilled up. The game at your level is for the kids, no matter how much you paid to play. It's for the kids! Keep that in mind and you will have better experiences coaching middle school girls.