T'ed Up?

[Kaliix]

I sometimes wonder about you guys. If a coach says, "You just made that same call on the other end" or "That was a foul the last time" that doesn't mean he is accusing anyone of cheating or of intentionally being biased. It just means that he thought that you were not consistent in your judgement of what was a foul.

Basketball is probably the hardest sport to officiate. Some calls are obvious but alot of them are judgement. How tight or lose are you calling the game. Look at the college semi-final between Duke and UConn. It was one of the most horribly officiated games in recent memory because the refs were calling everything, then nothing and the sheer volume of calls made the game practically unwatchable.

I had games where I would applaud the ref and tell some parents to quiet down on a call on my kids.

I also had games where the ref called next to nothing and the game got out of hand.

Maybe I deserved the T. But the refs did a poor job of communicating to me, sent my best player to the bench on two questionable calls and then refused to call the game tight both ways.

The slap was on the arm, by the way, not the ball and not the hand on the ball. I actually had the best angle on the call from where I was.

Originally posted by cingram

I don't see how you see this as non accusing - You are telling them that they are not being consistent - and thus are cheating.

Sometimes I guess I expect more out of coaches...

A slapping noise is not necessarily a foul call (some of the time granted it is). If the hand is on the ball and is slapped it is not a foul (if they get the arm then it is).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Last year I coached a middle school girls basketball team.

And this year they should keep you away from any middle school girls basketball team until you learn a little bit about sportsmanship. Working the refs in middle school? Lah me, you've been watching a little too much NBA, Bozo. It's freaking MIDDLE SCHOOL GIRLS that you're coaching. Young kids! Think about it!

Constantly whining about calls to officials that are probably just starting out in the game- just like you- shows what a class act you are also.

unbelievable!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

And this year they should keep you away from any middle school girls basketball team until you learn a little bit about sportsmanship. Working the refs in middle school? Lah me, you've been watching a little too much NBA, Bozo. It's freaking MIDDLE SCHOOL GIRLS that you're coaching. Young kids! Think about it!

Constantly whining about calls to officials that are probably just starting out in the game- just like you- shows what a class act you are also.

unbelievable!

Ah c'mon JR, back off. The guy's obviously a big time MS girls coach and knows his stuff. I'm certain he's not nearly as big a jerk as he's making himself out to be.

Couldn't possibly be.

[Kaliix]

Okay smart alleck, you want a partial list, fine...

A player makes even slight contact anywhere near the shooters elbow. An old playground trick that should draw a foul everytime. Note Caron Butlers last second shot and foul call three years back against NC State.

Offensive player lowers the shoulder and tries to drive through the defender. (Unless your Shaq ;-)

A rebounder climbs up the back of a player who is rebounding the ball.

A defender slaps at the ball and the sound of flesh on flesh is heard

A defender puts his hand in the offensive players back and clearly impedes his progress.

Even easier ones.

The player dribbles a ball with both hands.

A defender kicks the ball thinking he is playing soccer.

A player dribbles the ball picks it up and then starts to dribble it again with no one else having touched the ball.

Again, this is only a partial list... :-)

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I thought so.

Dime a dozen my friend, dime a dozen.

[footlocker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CYO Butch

As a middle school coach myself, I would say that I like what the official did. "Working the refs" is completely inappropriate at this level. It sets a VERY BAD EXAMPLE for the kids, and it reflects what I see as a misplaced set of values. The game is there for the kids. You want them to win, but you also want them to learn a whole lot of life lessons about teamwork and dedication within a set of rules - lessons that ultimately don't have much to do with basketball. Trying to influence the outcome by maniplating the only impartial people there is not the lesson I want to teach, and it is not the lesson that I like to see others teach either. Sure, coaches are often emotional people, and we can get very frustrated when things are not going our way, and sure, sometimes our emotions lead us to things that might cross the line to deserve a technical, but that line will move closer the more we complain. If you had not been on the officials all game, your complaint might have just resulted in a warning, but you brought it on yourself.

Aside from my feelings about the lesson "working the refs" gives, I think it is really self-defeating. Why would anybody think they would gain by getting an official p*ssed at them?

I like this response the best. I hope Kaliix can learn from it as well as other coaches.

Now, I may catch some heat here. It's easy for us to dismiss what you’re saying as biased. However, it is not my goal to be contrary to a coach so I'll give you my honest response.

You were biased and did not see the game objectively. I'm sure you admit that. However, if the game was called tight at one end and your girls were abused at the other end then that is bad officiating. Since none of us were there and we only have your side, it's easy to dismiss you. However, anyone on this board that observes other, younger officials will tell them to be consistent with the calls.

We don't know what imbalance there may have been. But you may be right. I have seen bad officiating, bad coaching and bad playing. Wearing stripes does not make them right, but they are the rule enforcers for your game. If you were chipping at me during the game and I never had a chance to straighten you out, then you yell at me from across the court, “Come on! Call 'em both ways!!"… I’d likely T you up too. I can’t let you think that it is ok to show me up in a gym full of people. It’s inappropriate.

But you may have been right about the calls, I’ve seen it. If you want to work the refs you are teaching something to your players. Unfortunately, it’s nothing I would want my kids learning.

Good luck Coach.

Originally posted by Kaliix
Dan,
If I have to list them for you, you shouldn't even be in this conversation...

By no-brainer do you mean everyone in the gym and even the concession stand in the hallway agrees on a call? If that is what you mean then there very rarely are no-brainer calls.

I've had a player control foul where the defender established defensive position, backed up, stopped, and took the charge. The coach didn't agree with me on that no-brainer.

Or perhaps you mean the slamming the ball in frustration Technical foul - That usually almost everyone agrees with.

Have you tried reffing yourself? Have you written the test? Have you always been in the perfect position on every play?

Maybe give reffing a little shot. See what it is like. See what it takes... perhaps that will give you a different perspective on coaching.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kaliix

A defender slaps at the ball and the sound of flesh on flesh is heard

Oh my. My first impression of you was absolutely correct. Another know-nothing, wannabe middle school coach who doesn't know dick all about the rules or the game, could care less about teaching sportsmanship, and on top of that thinks that he's coaching NCAA or NBA games. Yup, lets work those officials.

They shouldn't let you anywhere near young athletes.

[Kaliix]

Hmmm... I guess since you called me a Bozo I get one...

I guess the phrase "working the ref" has a serious negative connotation to you guys. Let's try some else.

How about keeping the refs honest, sticking up for your players or something similar to that.

I never said I was obnoxious about, you all assumed that. There are certainly coaches who don't say word one to the refs and that's fine.

There are also those who can talk to the refs all game (not constantly mind you, they pick there spots) and never piss anyone off and maybe end up getting a call or two. It's all in how you do it.

I believe in getting every legal advantage I can. Keeping in the refs ear in a nice way can get you calls. You guys are human and it does work. One doesn't have to be a jerk about it.

It's got nothing to do with fair play or sportsmanship if done correctly. And when your kids are getting the short end of the whistle, they want their coach to try and stand up for them in every legal way possible. They respect that.

Did I get a bit PO'ed that one game. You bet. I was getting inconsistent calls, and they ref's were missing obvious one's which they shouldn't have, especially considering how they called the game early.

But hey, I coach with intensity, enthusiasm and passion, just like how I expect my players to play. You don't have to be great, but you have to play hard.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

And this year they should keep you away from any middle school girls basketball team until you learn a little bit about sportsmanship. Working the refs in middle school? Lah me, you've been watching a little too much NBA, Bozo. It's freaking MIDDLE SCHOOL GIRLS that you're coaching. Young kids! Think about it!

Constantly whining about calls to officials that are probably just starting out in the game- just like you- shows what a class act you are also.

unbelievable!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by CYO Butch

As a middle school coach myself, I would say that I like what the official did. "Working the refs" is completely inappropriate at this level. It sets a VERY BAD EXAMPLE for the kids, and it reflects what I see as a misplaced set of values. The game is there for the kids. You want them to win, but you also want them to learn a whole lot of life lessons about teamwork and dedication within a set of rules - lessons that ultimately don't have much to do with basketball. Trying to influence the outcome by maniplating the only impartial people there is not the lesson I want to teach, and it is not the lesson that I like to see others teach either. Sure, coaches are often emotional people, and we can get very frustrated when things are not going our way, and sure, sometimes our emotions lead us to things that might cross the line to deserve a technical, but that line will move closer the more we complain. If you had not been on the officials all game, your complaint might have just resulted in a warning, but you brought it on yourself.

Aside from my feelings about the lesson "working the refs" gives, I think it is really self-defeating. Why would anybody think they would gain by getting an official p*ssed at them?

Butch, that's the difference between actually being a "coach" and being whatever Kaliix is. Maybe he'll read your post and give it some thought. I don't hold out much hope of that, though, after reading some of his other responses.

[Stan]

Originally posted by Kaliix
I know enough to know which fouls have some judgement to them and which are no brainers.

You have mentioned situations and examples of NCAA and NBA plays. You also brought up violations that I probably didn't see because I was trying to communicate with the coach.

Anybody that talks about rules, Shaq and middle school girls in the same sentence is not thinking clearly. Sorry coach, this game's for the girls.

[SMEngmann]

I agree with footlocker, doing anything other than issuing the T in that situation could have really led to a situation where the game could have gotten out of control. At some point the officials have to assert themselves and draw a line which cannot be crossed to maintain the integrity of the game. What causes the officials to reach that line is based on their judgement, but they were doing what they had to do to control the game.

As for the list of fouls called, it's clear, kalix, that you have not officiated and have a fan's understanding of how to call a game. For instance, hearing "flesh on flesh" contact on a shot alone should not constitute a foul call. I had a play in my first year, a JV game in which I called a foul on a 3 pointer with 5 seconds left OT in a 3 point game because I heard the sound of flesh on flesh. I was somewhat straightlined and I didn't see contact. Turns out that a player clapped right at the time the defender swung at and attempted to block the shot. Fortunately, the player didn't make all of his free throws and my missed call didn't affect the outcome of the game, but it made me sick and since then I will make sure I see it before I call it.

Finally, I don't necessarily like the way we're dealing with coaches in this forum. This coach came in with a legitimate question and has debated it, and we've come back with personal comments and judgements. We as officials are not superior to coaches and perhaps this coach had a good argument. It's certainly sparked a decent conversation. Even though the coach originally came in here looking for sympathy or agreement, the coach is entitled to respect here and honest answers, not some snide remarks. Having coaches with different opinions, in my opinion, can enhance the forum so long as they are not openly disrespectful to officials. Seems like anyone who IDs themselves as a coach here has a big bullseye on their chest.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kaliix

How about keeping the refs honest.

I believe in getting every legal advantage I can. Keeping in the refs ear in a nice way can get you calls. You guys are human and it does work.

It's got nothing to do with fair play or sportsmanship if done correctly. And when your kids are getting the short end of the whistle, they want their coach to try and stand up for them in every legal way possible. They respect that.

Did I get a bit PO'ed that one game. You bet. I was getting inconsistent calls, and they ref's were missing obvious one's which they shouldn't have, especially considering how they called the game early.

Nope, you don't get it. And you obviously never will get it either, Bozo. I just can't bring myself to call you "coach". I have too much respect for the real coaches that are out there.

Go back to keeping the referees honest,working for your legal advantage and staying in the ref's ears. Get those calls. That's really the most important part of coaching middle school girls basketball teams, isn't it?

[CommonSenseRef]

Nice post footlocker, I agree. Unfortunately, I am really embarrassed so see a veteran member of this board feel the need to resort to name calling, ie. Bozo. Sure, this guy is venting, and maybe rightly so, who knows. Like I've never NEVER seen any venting about coaches on this board.

'Working the refs' at this level is definitely inappropriate. Likewise, as officials, even at this level of game we should do our best to treat the players, coaches, etc. with the same amount of respect as we do at the varsity level. These kids and coaches put in time, money, and effort too and don't deserve to have officials with flippant attitudes because it is a middle school game. We are the decision-makers on the court, but we too should be held accountable.

With that said, I think that the 'working the refs' comment this guy made, is being blown way out of proportion. When I read that a coach, at times, applauds referees for a good game, or tries to keep parents under control are qualities of a coach that are not always present in the coaches we see. I think this coach wants the best for his players and wants games called fairly. Gee, how unreasonable. In addition though, it does seem possible that this coach might not handle tough situations always in the correct manner and probably needs to work on that aspect of his coaching. I, for one, am not going to condemn him for this potential 'weak area' in his coaching. Nobody's perfect.

As a parent, I don't want my child's coach yelling and complaining about every call. But I definitely would want the coach to 'take care of' his players if the game looked one-sided.

There are some great officials out there, and then there are some officials out there that can't even handle a middle school game, but THINK they are ready to do college. More people on here need to keep that bit of reality in mind.

[Hawks Coach]

We all understand what working the refs is - we don't think it is appropriate. If there is a pattern of something I don't like, such as a player who is pushing off regularly to get open or throwing football blacks on screens, I will say something. If you are saying a lot about a lot of no-calls or calls you don't like, you aren't coaching. Period.

When I listen to the parents behind me at games, I realize that most people don't know how a game should be called. Not all contact is a foul, not even all illegal contact merits calling a foul. There is a lot of illegal contact that goes un-called every game. That which favors our team, we ignore - its part of the game. That which faovrs the other team, that's something the refs missed, and we're getting hosed. Happens all the time.

I have been accused of getting all the calls because I am the home team, and I have had parents come up to me after the same game and say that the refs sucked. Hmmm. Bias on both sides seems to be the only explanation for how two teams could get jobbed by the refs in the same game.

And I read your list of obvious fouls, and that tells me you have a working knowledge but not a rulebook or referee's knowledge of how a game should be called. Most of your obvious calls aren't even listed as such in the rule or case book.

Flesh on flesh, not always a foul - did you know that?

Over the back, not a foul listed anywhere in the rules.

Lowering the shoulder, realy depends - it's a nice rule of thumb, but you have to see who did what where before making that call. Of course that's not what the announcers will say.

Hand on the back and impeding progress, that is technically a foul, but a lot of contact in the post goes un-called. You could have a whistle every possession if you wanted a strict rules interpretation call. Hand on the back impeding progress is clearly a very judgmental call - and you don't want a lot of pre-shot contact called in the post. You usually want to get the offensive scoring opportunity.

So if this is your list of obvious fouls, you have missed the boat on all of them, either partially or totally.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Kaliix

I guess the phrase "working the ref" has a serious negative connotation to you guys. Let's try some else.

How about keeping the refs honest,

There are also those who can talk to the refs all game (not constantly mind you, they pick there spots) and never piss anyone off and maybe end up getting a call or two. It's all in how you do it.

One doesn't have to be a jerk about it.

It's got nothing to do with fair play or sportsmanship

Did I get a bit PO'ed that one game. You bet.

So Mr/Mrs/Ms Kaliix, you seem to have answered your own questions right here...you got pissed off and yelled across the court at the official. And now wonder why you got T'd up...you got T'd up BECAUSE you got pissed off and yelled across the court at the official. Like you said - it's all in how you do it, and you don't have to be a jerk about it...a simple comment to the official - "Hey, it sure seems like my player got slapped down there. What did you see" would have worked a whole lot better...and I would say that if you are worried about "keeping refs honest" then it has a whole LOT to do with sportsmanship (or maybe lack of it)...look at it this way - your team comes down the floor on D and you tell them to drop into a 2-3 zone...the other team has a GREAT 3 pt. shooter (use your imagination here for mid. school ball) who promptly drains a trey on you...parent stand up and starts yelling at you for choosing that "stupid defense - what were you thinking - get your head in the game", etc, etc...you gonna sit and take it - or have a little chat with that parent later...we aren't gonna take it when you as a coach get pissed off and yell across the court at us either...something to think about anyway.

And don't worry about JR calling you a bozo - he calls me and Chuck WAY worse than that!!! (I'll buy you a brownpop some day JR!!!)