T'ed Up?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by CommonSenseRef
Unfortunately, I am really embarrassed so see a veteran member of this board feel the need to resort to name calling, ie. Bozo. Sure, this guy is venting, and maybe rightly so, who knows. Like I've never NEVER seen any venting about coaches on this board.

Tell you what. Somewhere down the line, you try spending literally hundreds of hours each year recruiting, training, assigning, evaluating and mentoring referees. Do it for about, oh, 20 or 25 years too. Then you sit down EVERY SINGLE YEAR with a bunch of these referees- great,young men and women- and listen to why they are giving up officiating as "not being worth the abuse that we have to take". Give it a try, guys. Let's see how much patience you end up having with bozos like Kaliix that obviously do not respect officials or the job that the officials are trying to do. I have nothing but respect for the coaches that actually COACH! Nobody minds any coach that gets upset occasionally. And that includes T's or the occasional ejection too. However, I certainly do mind middle-school coaches, or any coach really, that think working the officials is a major part of their coaching duties. I have no respect for them, and I will never will have any respect for them.

To be quite honest, I'm as equally embarrassed when I read about other officials that do tolerate coaches that abuse their fellow officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad
And don't worry about JR calling you a bozo - he calls me and Chuck WAY worse than that!!! (I'll buy you a brownpop some day JR!!!)

[/B]

Jeeze, as a long suffering Mariners' fan, I think that I should be the one buying. You deserve that much!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Tell you what. Somewhere down the line, you try spending literally hundreds of hours each year recruiting, training, assigning, evaluating and mentoring referees. Do it for about, oh, 20 or 25 years too. Then you sit down EVERY SINGLE YEAR with a bunch of these referees- great,young men and women- and listen to why they are giving up officiating as "not being worth the abuse that we have to take". Give it a try, guys. Let's see how much patience you end up having with bozos like Kaliix that obviously do not respect officials or the job that the officials are trying to do.

This is the crux of the matter. Let's face facts. New refs need training and they need opportunities to make mistakes. Even experienced refs have bad days every now and then. It's the abuse and mis-treatment that gets stacked onto those bad days that makes the situation intolerable.

When I was reffing a lot of middle school girls games (last month!), I would toss anyone who stepped out onto the floor to yell at me, unless it was to get my attention for a time-out in a very noisy gym. Talk about aggressive and scary -- someome coming toward you, yelling, is definitely over the top.

Kalix, the problem we're having here is that you came in asking a question, and you didn't like the answer so now you're trying to convince us to change our minds. Several people have agreed with you that the calls may have been bad, that you might have had good reason to be frustrated, that there have been some responses on this board that weren't diplomatic. Even these folks who agree with you this much are saying that stepping out onto the floor to yell such a harsh comment at a ref is out of line. It's just too much.

You need to see this more as a chance to teach your players a lesson about magnanimity, and less as a chance to "legally get in the ref's pocket." What your girls ended up doing was losing any chance to gain any basketball knowledge, because the T from the ref took their attention away from the game and the play, and put it on you and your words and actions. That's just not good coaching. The coaches who end up with players who go on in the game later in life are the ones who say to the girls, "Okay, it feels like the calls aren't going our way, but that's just the game. How are we going to get around their post player? How can we get the ball ahead of the defense? Who can dribble a little faster? Let's try that new play we've been working on. Etc..."

You already knew your team had little chance to win. So screw "win". You concentrate on learn, improve, grow. Let the refs concentrate on fair, consistent and even.

[rainmaker]

Kalix -- Here's a true story. My daughter played hs basketball a few years ago (craven attempts to impress assignors with my youthful athletic ability prevent me admitting how many years!). When she was a freshman and playing varsity, her team was very, very good. That year, the player of the year for the state of Oregon was on her team. They won their first game at the state tournament (of course!!) and we excitedly went back the next day to see them cream another poor defenseless team. Unfortunately, the refs were racially prejudice. As a parent, I could tell just by looking at them that they weren't going to favor my daughter's all-black team. Many of the parents were uneasy about it. And sure enough, they threw the game. No, they really did. My suspicions were confirmed years later when I was talking about that game to a state official. Many, many people suspected it when they saw it happen, and they were right. It was any sports fans' worst nightmare.

Here's what my daughter's coach said to those girls in the locker room seconds after the game was over. "You girls just got punched in the stomach because you're black. There's no question about what happened out there. But you know what? I don't care. You played hard, you showed a lot of people what backbone is. You should have won. And that's all that matters. The only people that got hurt out there were the girls from XXX School who now think they're better than they are. They're being set up for a fall. But you girls know how good you are. You're great, and you know it. All of you seniors who are going to college are getting scholarships, and coaches from those schools won't change their minds about you because of this. They saw what happened just like everyone else did. You are all big, talented, wonderful girls who deserve to have the very best in life, and you'll get it. No prejudiced, small-minded referees can take that away from you. Period."

All those seniors who went to college DID get scholarships, two at D1 schools. And action was taken to see that the refs weren't quite so far out of line from then on.

The point to this is that a good coach doesn't let a bad set of refs faze him (or her). You must rise above it. Be better players than that. And especially don't earn yourself a T, just because the refs aren't very good. It isn't going to help anyone.

[BktBallRef]

Bozo posts his question, then gets defensive when he doesn't like the answers he gets.

Bozo thinks he should be warned before he's T'ed up since "the school payed money to get in."

Bozo thinks it's appropriate for a middle school girls coach to work the officials.

Bozo thinks that "over the back" and "reaching" are fouls.

Bozo thinks that he'll get the next call if he yells at the officials.

Bozo ignored great posts by footlocker and Butch, and continues to defend his behavior.

Bozo came here, looking for someone to tell him the ref was wrong. He didn't find it. Then he started looking for an argument. Bozo found it.

Bozo thinks he's a coach.

Yeah, he's a Bozo, He just doesn't know it. It took JR to tell him. Get over it.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Last year I coached a middle school girls basketball team. Considering what I had to work with, we did well and won more than we lost.

End of the season comes and we go to play in a local tournament. We are playing against one of the teams that eventually made the finals and I could tell from warm ups that we were going to be lucky to keep this one close.

Game starts, first possesion for the other team and my best and tallest player picks up a questionable foul, one of those that could be called but one I have seen let go many times.

Second free throw of the shooting foul is missed, players going for the rebound and my best player gets called for a cheap contact foul on the rebound. I was just as surprised as she was that a foul was called.

As the game progresses, I can sense that we are just not getting any calls. My kids are getting knocked around and get nothing. A little contact the other way and they get a whistle. The parents are getting frustrated because of it.

Now, one of my kids spots up for jump shot, defender goes right at her and "blocks" the shot. I put blocks in quotes because it happened at the other end of the floor and I could clearly hear the slap of flesh sound and see that she was fouled. No call!

Immediately I'm now really aggravated and I yell at the ref, "Come on! Call 'em both ways!!"

So what does he do, he T's me up!

For that?!?!

Does that sound like something that warrants a technical?

I was working the refs a little before hand, but nothing excessive and nothing worse than an "Aw, come on!" or a "Looked like some contact to me?!?"

I've waited to respond to this because many of the things I would have said were already said, but this was not.

You said your team was overmatched, "We'd be lucky to keep it close." I think what you were hoping for was the officials HELPING your cause, but when that did not happen you wanted the officiating to be an excuse for your team losing.

Here is a what happened to me a few years ago. Boys JV game, the home coach was chirping from the first call and he got a T in the second quarter. His team was complaining on calls, too and fell behind by 15 at haltime.

Early in the third, with his team down 20, the coach got another T and was ejected. The varsity coach took over, never said a word, and neither did the players. The home team came back and won by 10 points.

As coach you set the tone, if you "work" the refs, the players act accordingly.

FYI, the AD came in after the game and apologized for the JV coaches behavior and told us he just fired him.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Dan,
If I have to list them for you, you shouldn't even be in this conversation...

I can see now why you got T'd up.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Kaliix
I actually had the best angle on the call from where I was.

Even assuming you're right (which is somewhat doubtful from a physics point of view), your response indicates that the ref had a different view. Now, we can talk about mechanics and how he may have needed to be in a different position, but he has to call what he sees - not what you say he should have seen.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Okay smart alleck, you want a partial list, fine...

A player makes even slight contact anywhere near the shooters elbow. An old playground trick that should draw a foul everytime. Note Caron Butlers last second shot and foul call three years back against NC State.

Offensive player lowers the shoulder and tries to drive through the defender. (Unless your Shaq ;-)

A rebounder climbs up the back of a player who is rebounding the ball.

A defender slaps at the ball and the sound of flesh on flesh is heard

A defender puts his hand in the offensive players back and clearly impedes his progress.

Even easier ones.

The player dribbles a ball with both hands.

A defender kicks the ball thinking he is playing soccer.

A player dribbles the ball picks it up and then starts to dribble it again with no one else having touched the ball.

Again, this is only a partial list... :-)

Coach, do you ever find yourself seeing that the other team is committing dozens of these, but you don't see your team doing the same things?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Kaliix

A defender slaps at the ball and the sound of flesh on flesh is heard

Also, I'll give you fifty bucks if you can prove how, by rule, this constitutes an automatic foul.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by cingram

Or perhaps you mean the slamming the ball in frustration Technical foul - That usually almost everyone agrees with.

I wish, cingram - I've even been criticized by evaluators for this one . . .

[CommonSenseRef]

No arguments here Jurassic, coaches need to focus more on their players, not us (any level). Funny how their team usually does better when they do 'start coaching' and stop yelling at us. A couple of points........

1) I assume that when a coach has you a bit upset during a game, you maintain your professionalism and don't resort to name calling. Why not here? There are many people reading this forum that are not officials. Why do you want to portray the hothead/name-calling image from the official's side?

2) In my prior post I re-iterated a few points that Kaliix made about applauding officials on a good game and keeping the parents under control when they are yelling at the officials. To me, these are qualities that I, as an official, like to see in coaches. I think you've chose to totally focus on the 'working the referee' aspect, which is fine. I agree that Kaliix probably has a long ways to go in becoming a good, well-rounded coach. I also think that you're assuming that the officials that worked this game in question, were competent officials. I don't make this assumption. Why? Because I have seen and worked with too many incompetent officials that shouldn't work any level of basketball. Many of them were great, wonderful, caring individuals, but were clearly a detriment in officiating basketball.

IMO, for those young officials that have great potential, but end up quitting..........I think it has more to do with the horrific actions (physical and verbal) of parents rather than coaches. Young officials start out working younger kids games, YMCA, AAU, rec league. This is where parents are at their worst. The rash of news stories in the papers about parents assaulting officials proves it. When a young person makes that decision to officiate, they know going in that dealing with coaches is part of it, however, not may think about the aspect of having to continually deal with rude, obnoxious parents.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by CommonSenseRef
Young officials start out working younger kids games, YMCA, AAU, rec league. This is where parents are at their worst.

Ah, excuse me, but who do you think are coaching these teams? 9 times out of 10, the coaches in younger kids YMCA, AAU, and league games are PARENTS. They're the same animal.

Parents/coaches at this leavel are EQUALLY responsible for the problems that we have in losing young officials.

As for Jurassic, he can speak for himself but that's never stopped me from speaking up before. He may have to tolerate a stupid, big mouth coach in a game that he's officating but he doesn't have to tolerate one here and neither does anyone else. A genuine effort was made to answer Bozo's question. Bozo chose to take the low road. There was no turning it around after that.

This is a forum for discussion about officiating the game of basketball. Coaches are always welcome, as long as they take the high road. But we don't have to tolerate them when they take the low road. When hear enough of that crap in the gym. We shouldn't have to read it on a forum that's generously provided for us.

And Brad doesn't tolerate it either. He usually sends them packing.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 11:44 PM]

[ref18]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Here's a blank piece of paper, go ahead and list them.

I haven't read throught the rest of this thread yet, but i think the beginning of this list will go like this:

1. Reach
2. Over the back

Coach you deserved everything you got, and now your arguing it.

But your not alone out there, i got a writtain complaint from a coach, who was upset because after we had warned her, and I called a travel on her team, she yells, "[name of player] That wasn't a travel" everyone heard it, and we t'd her up, 3 months later, we have to do a write up.

Its one game, give it up and move on. Just don't make the same mistake again. T's are part of the game.


[Edited by ref18 on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 10:03 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by CommonSenseRef

1) I assume that when a coach has you a bit upset during a game, you maintain your professionalism and don't resort to name calling. Why not here? There are many people reading this forum that are not officials. Why do you want to portray the hothead/name-calling image from the official's side?

2) I also think that you're assuming that the officials that worked this game in question, were competent officials. I don't make this assumption. Why? Because I have seen and worked with too many incompetent officials that shouldn't work any level of basketball. Many of them were great, wonderful, caring individuals, but were clearly a detriment in officiating basketball.

IMO, for those young officials that have great potential, but end up quitting..........I think it has more to do with the horrific actions (physical and verbal) of parents rather than coaches.

[/B]

1) What I post here is what I believe in. That's true wheher Kaliix, or anyone else reponding to my posts for that matter, likes it or not. We have coaches that come to this forum on a regular basis- HawksCoach, PA Coach, CYO Butch, etc., because they know that a good, working knowledge of the rules is gonna give them a big advantage over the bozos like Kaliix who think that working the officials is the only way to go. These guys that have been coming here for a while don't just give lip-service to teaching sportsmanship, but they actually believe in it. I respect them greatly for that, and I think that they know that. Note that this certainly doesn't mean that we agree on everything either. Coaches like Kaliix do not have my respect, will never have my respect, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be two-faced and pretend that they do.

2) No, I certainly didn't assume ANYTHING about the officials that did the game that Kaliix is referring to. I commented on Kaliix's actions the way that he himself wrote about- his yapping, working the officials constantly, etc. Those actions are WRONG, no matter how good or bad the officials actually were. You seem to be the one that is hinting that they were incompetent officials. How exactly did you know that? And what have you ever done about the incompetent officials that you worked with anyway? Did you ever try to help those individuals become better officials? And you also just called some your fellow officials a detriment to officiating basketball? And then you're saying that I talked too harshly about Kaliix? Oh my! And I don't think that I'd really better comment any further on that. If I did, this thread would disappear in a hurry.

And as for your point that more officials quit because of parents than because of coaches, that is a complete reversal from I've been hearing from the officials in my area that are hanging up their whistles. They expected to hear crap from the parents when they started officiating. They didn't expect to hear the same sh*t from a middle-school girls' coach who should have been teaching sportsmanship along with the basketball skills. Iow, I don't agree with you on that one either.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 10:06 PM]