T'ed Up?

[official/coach]

Jur.Ref;

Come on now. This isn't politics. The poster used the phrase "middle school girls coach" in a derogatory manner to put down the coach. All I am saying is that while he was coaching middle school girls, the official was calling a middle school girls game, so they are basically in the same zip code there. I am not trying to argue about this, only being fair. If you think you are too good to be dealing with middle school girls coaches, don't officiate middle school girls games.

[Brad]

I have to say that I didn't think that the coach's original post was that bad. He didn't say "all officials suck" or "all officials are cheaters". He didn't even say that about the officials in the game to which he was referring.

He simply asked if a technical was warranted in the situation that he described. Personally, I think that if he YELLED, "Call it both ways!" across the floor it certainly could warrant a technical foul. Maybe after seeing the opinions of several other officials he will change his viewpoint somewhat.

I think that it's valuable to have coaches visit this board. If more did maybe they would understand the rules better or know how to interact with officials on a more reasonable level.

I don't *hate* coaches like some officials do. Sure, I think that some of them are complete idiots and raving lunatics because of what they do on the court. But, business is business -- it's not personal. Just deal with them in the appropriate manner and move on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by official/coach
Jur.Ref;

Come on now. This isn't politics. The poster used the phrase "middle school girls coach" in a derogatory manner to put down the coach. All I am saying is that while he was coaching middle school girls, the official was calling a middle school girls game, so they are basically in the same zip code there. I am not trying to argue about this, only being fair. If you think you are too good to be dealing with middle school girls coaches, don't officiate middle school girls games.

I'm not completely sure about the point that you are trying to make. The poster was trying to remind Kallix that he was coaching middle school girls. Not the Lakers in the NBA Finals. Leave the "working officials" up to Phil Jackson, iow. And I'm too good to deal with middle school girls coaches? I assign all the games at all levels in my area for the association that I belong to. I deal with middle school coaches all the time. I also assign myself to quite a few of these games to train new officials. Most of the middle school coaches that I deal with are very good people, who honestly believe in the tenets of sportsmanship and fair play, and who also know that their main job is COACHING. They leave the officiating up to us. They may question a call, or get upset at an obviously bad call- but THEY DO NOT WORK OFFICIALS. They also know that, quite often, they are going to get newer officials and trainees on their games. They allow for that. Being realistic, they don't expect to have NCAA D1 quality officials assigned to their games. Unfortunately, a few of them are similar to Kallix-i.e.- let's work the officials to see if we can gain ourselves an extra advantage, or let's worry more about trying to influence an official than actually spending some time teaching their team. Especially teaching their team a little bit about sportsmanship.

Also, I don't categorize either coaches or officials as "middle school" anything. I do recognize that a few coaches at all levels try to justify their own shortcomings by blaming the officials for everything that they can come up with. Thankfully, they are a small minority. I also recognize that they are some officials out there that are, quite plain and simply, not very good. Unfortunately, due to a general shortage of officials (not just in my area, but right across the country), we have to use these officials. You know what? Even if they're bad, as long as they are consistent and equally fair to both teams in their game-calling, they will never cost anybody a ballgame. Just because they are not good officials does not give Kallix or any other coach license to work, try and influence, or constantly complain about the job that they are doing.

That's where I'm coming from,coach.

[Brad]

JR,

That is a great point. I don't think that there is a middle school girls game anywhere in the country that can be influenced by the officiating! 7th and 8th grade girls are still learning how to play the game and their skills are, for the most part, not very good.

Making layups, not turning the ball over, and hitting free throws will far more influence the game than any call or non-call by an official.

At higher levels officiating CAN influence the game. When one of the best players on a team picks up three fouls quickly in the first half, for example, it can affect how that team can compete. But at the lower levels I totally agree that coaches should focus on their players rather than the officials. The life lesson that coaches could teach their players by telling them not to worry about the officiating and focus on their playing would be one well worth learning.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Brad

Making layups, not turning the ball over, and hitting free throws will far more influence the game than any call or non-call by an official.

Very true, Brad. And I think coaches that teach ballplayers to make layups, not turn the ball over and hit free throws usually win a heckuva lot more games in the long run than coaches that waste their time "working" officials do.

[Kaliix]

You know you guys are reading way to much into this working the officials stuff.

Thinking back on the whole year, most games I didn't even bother the officials. As a whole, the games were officiated fairly well and pretty fairly. Usually, I more often applaud the good calls then worry about the bad ones. If I would say anything to the refs, it would be more like "Ohhh, that was close." or maybe "hummm, thought she had position." But even then this was only occasionally. More often then not, I was too busy cheering on my players.

Only two games all year I thought were officiated badly. One game got completely out of hand. The ref wouldn't call anything on either team. It went beyond letting 'em play to the point were I thought someone was going to get hurt. Even my kids were like, "Coach, I'm getting nailed out!" It was really ridiculous.

I already said once that I was wrong and I deserved the T. I was trying to work the officials that one game because while I may be a bit biased, it was plainly obvious that they got my best player out of the game early with two close calls and then wouldn't call any kind of similiar contact going to the other way. I may not officiate basketball and may only be a coach, but I can tell when there is contact on my player that should be a foul. I certainly could be wrong sometimes, but not every time.

But hey, what I did was wrong. And that's fine. I learned from this thread and if I ever have to deal with that kind situation again, I'll certainly handle it differently. That is why I made the post in the first place, to get input and learn, not to troll, like some have wrongly implied.

But I'll tell you what, you guys as a group, with some exceptions, really are disappointing. You think that it is perfectly acceptable to be rude, to name call, to be insulting and judgemental just because you may not like someones point of view. I did nothing in the way of name calling and with the possible exception of a couple "smart" comments was generally respectful and pleasant.

So much for intelligent discourse, open minds, and trying to achieve a greater understanding. Your group as a whole acted more like 5th graders picking on someone who was different than impartial adult officials trying to have an intelligent conversation.

And that is just freakin' sad! Pathetic really,... and it's too bad!

I'm done and outa here....

(Elvis has left the building)

[Brad]

Kaliix,

I think that you have to understand that you see things from a coach's perspective and we see things from an official's perspective.

You state that you don't make many comments to officials, but have included several examples here -- thought she had position, that was close, and the one that got you into trouble: call it both ways.

But, we have been (and are in every game) on the receiving end of those comments. Day in and day out. Every single freaking game.

Trust me when I say that it gets old. Listening to the same comments over and over from coaches, players, and fans that do not have the first clue about the rules of the game.

From those yelling "3 seconds" as the offensive team rebounds and shoots over and over, to explaining that a player does not have to be standing still to "take a charge", to arguing with a coach or fan who thinks that the rules in the NBA are the same ones used in lower levels... I just gets old and it's the same crap every single game.

I think that the bottom line is that there is really no reason for a middle school coach to be saying anything to the officials. The old line about being afraid that someone is going to get hurt is one that we've heard over and over -- usually from a coach or parent who does not feel that they are "getting calls".

You *can* get hurt in basketball -- and generally it is not the official's fault. There is one way to guarantee that your child is not hurt: don't play. Can games get "out of control"? Yes. Can a middle school girls game get out of control? As the British might say, "Not bloody likely."

For all your disappointment in the "open mindedness" of officials, I assure you that collectively we are much more disappointed in the lack of sportsmanship shown by coaches at every level.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Brad

For all your disappointment in the "open mindedness" of officials, I assure you that collectively we are much more disappointed in the lack of sportsmanship shown by coaches at every level.

Good response for all of us, Brad. The only thing that I could add is the fact that the great majority of officials, believe it or not, also care just as much for the ballplayers' welfare as the coaches, or even the parents for that matter. We don't want players hurt ever, even though injuries are part of the game sometime. We do want the best team to win- fair and square. We are also certainly not perfect. We will miss some calls every now and then, but we'll damn well miss them honestly.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Kaliix

Don't let the



hit you on the



on the way

[Jurassic Referee]

Well, Kaliix, you're going out with about the same amount of class that you came in with.