T'ed Up?

[reffish]

Originally posted by Kaliix

To those of you who think that a coach shouldn't try and talk to the referees,

Immediately I'm now really aggravated and I yell at the ref, "Come on! Call 'em both ways!!"

You were not talking to the ref. You yelled. That is why you were penelized. Bad behavior on the court. If you had talked to him about the call, then you probably wouldn't have been gotten a T. If the ref was not talkative, then you move on, or be the howler and get the T.

[reffish]

Originally posted by Kaliix


Immediately I'm now really aggravated and I yell at the ref, "Come on! Call 'em both ways!!"

So what does he do, he T's me up!

For that?!?!

Does that sound like something that warrants a technical?

I was working the refs a little before hand, but nothing excessive and nothing worse than an "Aw, come on!" or a "Looked like some contact to me?!?"

Does this look like you were talking to the refs. You are right, talk to the refs and everyone on this board will agree with you, talk to the refs, respectfully. Not yelling and "working the refs." That is the problem here. You did not talk to the refs.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Brad
First of all, I do think that we need to back off of the "bozo" comments -- let's maintain some level of respect around here.

OK with me canning the Bozo appellation. However, Brad, do NOT expect me to treat so-called coaches like Kallix with respect. I can't do that and look at myself in a mirror later. I have NO respect for him, or for any other person that employs the same coaching tactics that he uses and advocates. If you think that I'm going overboard, either delete my posts or delete me. Your choice.

[Kaliix]

To reffish:
Dude, why are beating a dead horse and quoting me out of context. I already admitted that

I wasn't sure I should have been T'ed up, but in reading the litany of posts this has generated and in giving some thought to the constructive criticism that my comments have generated, I see now why I received a technical foul and why it was deserved.

Someone asked for a list of no brainer calls, not no brainer calls at the middle school level. In response to that question, I am entitled to reference whatever I want.

[CYO Butch]

Originally posted by reffish
In reference to commonsenseref's comment that parents are the cause, I say that the coach is the root of attitude. If parents see coachs riding and blasting refs, parents are quicker to jump the ref. And the kids will follow the coach on the court with that attitude. The coach sets the stage of attitude on the court.

Reffish, I got to agree with you on that one. One of my responsibilities to my players is to make sure that everyone involved with our team displays sportsmanship at all times. Before the season starts, I hand out a "Letter to Parents" that lays out my expectations on them. This includes a couple of bullets about what kind on behavior is acceptable during games and what is not. I specifically mention all yelling at or to the officials. I also tell them that egregious violation will result in ME having game management remove them from the gym. Over the many years I've been doing this, I've only had a couple of parents get carried away enough to even approach the line. Usually, when that happens, all I need to do is call back into the stands something like "Hey Joe, lighten up on the refs, ok?" and things settle down. About three years ago I had one wife make her husband leave after my second "Hey Joe", but that was the most extreme it ever got. My favorite threat (never actually had to do it) was to call a timeout specifically to ask someone to quite down. That would bring the ire of all the fans down on them, and it would also hurt the team by costing us a timeout. Talk about peer pressure.

Frankly, the biggest problem I've ever had with parents has been them coaching from the sideline, not "working the refs". Talk about destructive behavior! But that's a thread for another board.

[reffish]

Good Kaliix. See you on the court, and hopefully you won't work me.

[Kaliix]

People like you give civilized society a bad name. There is never any reason to disrespect anyone just because you disagree with their opinion. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!

I didn't call you any names and never insulted you personally. You can disagree with me but is still no reason to be snide, insulting, and rude.

If you can't look at yourself in the mirror because you treat people with respect, even the ones you disagree with, I suggest therapy. Seriously

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

OK with me canning the Bozo appellation. However, Brad, do NOT expect me to treat so-called coaches like Kallix with respect. I can't do that and look at myself in a mirror later. I have NO respect for him, or for any other person that employs the same coaching tactics that he uses and advocates. If you think that I'm going overboard, either delete my posts or delete me. Your choice.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kaliix

I didn't call you any names and never insulted you personally. You can disagree with me but is still no reason to be snide, insulting, and rude.

[CommonSenseRef]

Originally posted by reffish
In reference to commonsenseref's comment that parents are the cause, I say that the coach is the root of attitude. If parents see coachs riding and blasting refs, parents are quicker to jump the ref. And the kids will follow the coach on the court with that attitude. The coach sets the stage of attitude on the court.

I'll take a game, any level, with no parents in the stands any day of the week. Most parents don't need any guidance from their kid's coach, they have their own agendas.

Originally posted by CommonSenseRef

I'll take a game, any level, with no parents in the stands any day of the week. Most parents don't need any guidance from their kid's coach, they have their own agendas.

I've had games both ways. Parents loud and obnoxious, coach quiet. Parents quiet until the coach starts chirping then they join in. I've also had games with chirping coaches and quiet parents.... Really there is no set guideline as to what will happen.

[Hawks Coach]

I have tended to see that parents follow the coach, or go off on their own. It is rare to see a chirpy coach and quiet parents. I am having parent issues myself this year, and can't wait for the season to end (not my usual feeling - it's been a tough year!). I don't say much, but I have one awful parent and a couple of other difficult ones. Two more tourneys . . .

[TimTaylor]

By way of introduction, I'm relatively new to this board, but for more than 40 years, whether as a competitor, coach(10 years GS/MS in CYO league), for recreation, or as an official, basketball has been an active part of my life.

I've been biting my tongue on this one, as most of my feelings have already been expressed - by Butch in particular.

This I feel I need to say:
If ever there was a justification for MANDATORY ASEP training & certification for youth coaches, this thread exemplifies the need.

The concept is simple: KIDS FIRST - WINNING SECOND


At the GS/MS level, everyone needs to strive to a higher standard - that includes coaches, parents and officials. This is the age at which teamwork and sportsmanship concepts are developed for these kids, and we all need to do our best to set a positive example. IMHO we all have responsibilities:

Parents:
1. Be positive and upbeat - cheer for good play on both teams.
2. During the game, let the coach do the coaching. It's very confusing to the kids to hear directions shouted from multiple sources.

Coaches:
1. Try to make it fun. In practice, work in some drills that are fun, but still help develop skills.
2. Strive to win - not to do so would be dishonest - but keep it in perspective. In every game there is a winner and a loser. Help them understand that playing against tougher opponents & sometimes losing as a result is how you get better. Let them know by your words and actions that if they tried their best, win lose or draw, they're winners in your eyes, that you're proud of them, and that they should be proud of themselves.
3. During the game be positive and upbeat - keep your cool and keep coaching. At this age, it seems like when the ball is tipped, half or more of what they worked so hard on in practice suddenly evaporates - it's your job to help them remember, but be positive, supporting and constructive in doing so. Negative criticism has no place in youth sports.
4. Be respectful of the officials - let them do their job and you do yours. Don't be afraid to ask them questions, but do it in a calm and respectful manner. If there's something you feel a need to bring to their attention, it's OK to do so, but be aware how you do it - a quiet "ref, my players are complaining that #xx is using her elbow to clear out - I'd appreciate it if you'd watch for it" during a stop in play or while he's passing the bench in transition is fine - yelling something less diplomatic across the court isn't.
5. If necessary, educate your parents in proper decorum - then lead by example.

Officials:
1.Give every game your best effort, regardless of the level - a 6th grade girls game is every bit as important to the players as a varsity HS boys game would be to its players. Be consistent & adjust to the level of the game - there are things (violations, not fouls) you don't call as tightly at 6th grade as you would at HS because the players skills simply haven't fully developed yet. Keep the game moving - it helps keep it more fun for everyone involved.
2. Remember that you and your partner are most likely the only two impartial people in the building. You need to be the calm, collected voice of reason in an otherwise chaotic world - don't get drawn into an emotional confrontation with a coach or spectator.
3. Be approachable, and open to respectful communication with the coaches - let them know pregame it's ok to ask you questions during a break in play and what you expect in terms of their conduct during the game. If they start to push the envelope, let them know, but if that doesn't curb the conduct don't be afraid to penalize immediately.
4. Ignore the spectators. If for some reason one of them really gets out of line, notify game management (gym monitor, etc.) and let them deal with it. Some youth leagues make the team coach responsible for fan conduct.

The most important thing for everyone is make it fun for the kids. Help them learn to love basketball and it's something they will be able to participate in - in one capacity or another - for the rest of their likes. Even at the HS varsity level, the very last thing I say to the captains pre-game is: "play hard, play fair, but don't forget to have fun while you're doing it".

[Hawks Coach]

Tim
I have done this for years, not as long as you. I used to run a NYSCAA certification program for coaches in a league I ran. No cert, no coach. End of subject.

Sadly, I have quit thinking that "training" does much for many coaches. It is a good thing to introduce and remind people of the concept of teaching the game and making it fun, but it is a competition. Some people will never be able to handle competition in a responsible manner. As soon as you put a score up, regardless of age or level of play, there are a fairly large number of people out there who will care just a bit too much. And unfortunately, some think that the way to satisfy their competitive urge is to coach.

I will readily admit that I am competitive and that is in part why I coach. I also like to teach, to see a team improve, to see players grow in skills and confidence, etc. And I have learned to control my emotions, out of decency to the kids I coach and out of a desire to have long term success. Many of my peers have no idea how to control their personal feelings when coaching. Some do, but there are far too many who do not. And that will not change in a sport that needs volunteers to run programs. Its simply that the wrong type of person volunteers for all the wrong reasons. And programs need coaches, so they take them every time.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I have tended to see that parents follow the coach, or go off on their own. It is rare to see a chirpy coach and quiet parents. I am having parent issues myself this year, and can't wait for the season to end (not my usual feeling - it's been a tough year!). I don't say much, but I have one awful parent and a couple of other difficult ones. Two more tourneys . . .

Maybe there were no parents there.... or perhaps they were just quieter than the coach.

I think it has usually happened with the fans far off the floor and very few of them.

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Tim
Sadly, I have quit thinking that "training" does much for many coaches. It is a good thing to introduce and remind people of the concept of teaching the game and making it fun, but it is a competition. Some people will never be able to handle competition in a responsible manner. As soon as you put a score up, regardless of age or level of play, there are a fairly large number of people out there who will care just a bit too much. And unfortunately, some think that the way to satisfy their competitive urge is to coach.

....Many of my peers have no idea how to control their personal feelings when coaching. Some do, but there are far too many who do not. And that will not change in a sport that needs volunteers to run programs. Its simply that the wrong type of person volunteers for all the wrong reasons. And programs need coaches, so they take them every time.

Unfortunate, but true - and therein lies the problem. It's supposed to be about the kids, not the egos of the adults trying to vicariously relive their youth through their kids.

I applaud the efforts that you and thousands of volunteer coaches like you put forth. You do make a difference.

In all fairness, I've run across very few youth coaches that are really and truely jerks, and they are easily dealt with. By contrast, a good number of volunteer coaches either simply don't understand bench decorum because nobody ever taught it to them, or wind up copping an attitude to cover up a lack of coaching skills or knowledge. Unfortunately, the majority of officials that work these games are those with less experience & often as a result are less likely to set firm limits early, which compounds the problem.

Will a little coaching education, either formal training or informally on the court - help? Maybe....but for the sake of the kids, I think it's worth a shot.