Block/Charge

[jcash]

Is defender entitled to that spot on the floor if he established lgp no matter how stupid he may be for setting up there?

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm probably the only official in America (I'm sure I'm exaggerating) who likes the NBA/NCAAW "semicircle." There are too many drives to the basket that end up being player control fouls because a defender puts himself/herself in the path of the defender -- not up where it is actually "playing defense" but rather at a spot on the floor where the only possible outcome is for the defender to get flattened and the official to call a PC foul.

[/B]

Rich, doesn't the semi-circle rule apply to secondary or "help" defenders, not the primary defender? [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually Rich, there are at least two of us here on this board...and to answer JR - in NCAAW there isn't a semi-circle, but the rule about taking a "charge" under the basket does apply only to secondary defenders...and anyone who likes the NCAAM ruling should refer back to the two PC calls in the first half on Gonzaga's Ronny Turiauf - wouldn't have been called that way in NCAAW or NBA...oh well, wouldn't have helped them anyway - Nevada was too good...

[Hawks Coach]

I do not think you are playing defense if you are guarding a landing area. Standing under the basket is not part of any defense I teach, and is in fact a cardinal sin in my system. Standing under the basket puts you in perfect position to retrieve made shots from the bottom of the net.

Standing under the basket is legal, and under current rules, technically qualifies as good defense if you draw a charge there. But I prefer that defenders actually be required to defend a player before they shoot, or in an area where they will shoot rather than an area they will land after release. If a player lands OOB, a defender is not allowed under the current NF interpretation to draw a charge here. Simply add under the basket to the list of areas where you can't draw a charge and it ceases to be anything but a block.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I do not think you are playing defense if you are guarding a landing area. Standing under the basket is not part of any defense I teach, and is in fact a cardinal sin in my system. Standing under the basket puts you in perfect position to retrieve made shots from the bottom of the net.

Standing under the basket is legal, and under current rules, technically qualifies as good defense if you draw a charge there. But I prefer that defenders actually be required to defend a player before they shoot, or in an area where they will shoot rather than an area they will land after release. If a player lands OOB, a defender is not allowed under the current NF interpretation to draw a charge here. Simply add under the basket to the list of areas where you can't draw a charge and it ceases to be anything but a block.

A1 drives the baseline and beats his defender B1. B2 is on the other side of the lane & sees this (don't ask me how, maybe he was ball-watching ) and comes over to help. He stops under the basket facing A1 before A1 goes airborne and takes a charge.

How is this not good defense by B2?

No call? Mmmmmm...maybe, maybe not. Block on B2? I don't think so.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Read that last line again, "If it is a FLOP it is a BLOCK."
Flops are by definition deliberate, I really can't see a player falling in the path of an opponent as a means of protection, so how many different circumstances can there be?

I also never said I'd call a T, I said it falls under a T in the rule book. Most officials I know will call it a block when it occurs in the lane.

[/B]

You are completely going against the rules if you call an automatic block on a defender who has obtained a legal guarding position and then flops. There is no rule in the book that will allow you to legally make that call. "Deliberate" has no bearing on the call either. A defender is allowed to protect themself, by rule, from a charge. Yes, you can call a T if you feel that the defender has faked a foul without contact. Other than that, you have to use the direction of the rule book to ascertain whether it should be a block or a charge- NOT just because the defender "flopped".

Most officials I know call this play using the concept of whether or not the defender had a legal guarding position when the contact occurred- and if there is not much contact, to just pass on a call. [/B][/QUOTE]

On the plays I've seen LGP usually has very lttle to do with it. This is about a defender that picked a spot in the path but the offensive player adjusted, so the defender
throws himself back, screams out, and hits the floor. It has nothing to do with LPG, or protection, it is about trying to trick the official.

If you call the first flop a block guess what, they stop flopping, and what can they say,"I did not touch him." I'll
fire back,"Then why did you hit the floor?"

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
cmatthews
I do not teach players to "flop." I do teach players to absorb the contact rather than allow contact to flatten them. If the contact is severe enough to knock them down, it is severe enough to hurt them if they allow it to knock them down. I think it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

I agree if it can knock you down it "can" hurt you. I do however disagree with falling at first contact...It isn't a foul if it doesn't displace the player, if the defense falls on first contact, and that contact is not normall enough to displace them, then this tactic is Flopping pure and simple. Assuming the contact wasn't enough to displace a player and they flop anyway, they are causing a bigger hazard than if they stood their ground to begin with. If I think a player is habitually flopping, they will have to get freighttrained in order to get the PC call. With that said, they will know if I think they are flopping...I give the get up signal. I didn't use to but after talking to one of our veteran officials, and watching him use it, I have begun to now also. His comment was if you do that then everyone knows you saw the play and why you had a No Call...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
[/B]

On the plays I've seen LGP usually has very lttle to do with it. This is about a defender that picked a spot in the path but the offensive player adjusted, so the defender
throws himself back, screams out, and hits the floor. It has nothing to do with LPG, or protection, it is about trying to trick the official.

If you call the first flop a block guess what, they stop flopping, and what can they say,"I did not touch him." I'll
fire back,"Then why did you hit the floor?"

[/B][/QUOTE]If it's about trying to trick the official,as you say above, then it's unsporting and the rules do allow you to call a T. There is NO rule in any rule book that will allow you to call a block, or personal foul of any type, when physical contact is absent. The very definition of a block, or any personal foul for that matter, says that it is illegal personal contact. If there is contact, then you are supposed to follow the rules that do apply to that contact, NOT ignore those rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

A1 drives the baseline and beats his defender B1. B2 is on the other side of the lane & sees this (don't ask me how, maybe he was ball-watching ) and comes over to help. He stops under the basket facing A1 before A1 goes airborne and takes a charge.

How is this not good defense by B2?

[/B][/QUOTE]The NCAA women's rule doesn't apply to baseline drives anyway, does it?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

A1 drives the baseline and beats his defender B1. B2 is on the other side of the lane & sees this (don't ask me how, maybe he was ball-watching ) and comes over to help. He stops under the basket facing A1 before A1 goes airborne and takes a charge.

How is this not good defense by B2?

[/B]

The NCAA women's rule doesn't apply to baseline drives anyway, does it? [/B][/QUOTE]

You may be right, but I wasn't specifically questioning if a particular rules set declares how a particualr play should be called. I was questioning those who like to say a player standing under the basket is not playing good defense. When I see the play I posted my first thought is "nice defense". (I'll admit I don't see exactly 100% of them though...but I get my fair share! )

Howzabout I change the play to "A1 drives just outside the left lane line and...". Got everyone covered now, right?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

You may be right, but I wasn't specifically questioning if a particular rules set declares how a particualr play should be called. I was questioning those who like to say a player standing under the basket is not playing good defense. When I see the play I posted my first thought is "nice defense".
[/B][/QUOTE]OK, and I personally agree with you. For the life of me, I can't figger out how you can make a rule that only applies to one particular spot on the offensive end of the court, and then if you have a defensive player move ONE little step, that rule no longer applies. And the rule that you did make also goes completely against established concepts like legal guarding position,etc. And you then top it all off by throwing in something like "But we don't really mean it if it happens along the baseline".

Doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, I get confused easily anyway.

[jcash]

This is all WAY too funny.

Thanks guys you have helped...