I don't T coaches?!

[ref18]

After reading through these posts, i've got a few more points to add to my last post.

-All of my T's have been justified, a few have been about the negative reactions of coaches to my calls, in particular there was an instance with a disconcertion call, and another one with a player control foul.

I've had one assistant coach ask me why I didn't make a call in my partner's area, i resonded, i was watching my area for off ball contact, etc, and he resonded, well you should be watching the game. Easy T there, wouldn't you think.

As I said most of them came from rec leagues, and middle school leagues, usually where a parent just volunteered for the coaching job. I haven't set foot on a high school court yet, because i'm still in high school. But when i do, i know i have to change the way I handle the coaches.

My assignor seems to like the job i do, because i am constantly getting a very good selection of games. (At least i hope its because i do a good job, not because he can't find anyone else to do them ) I've attended camps, I'm going to attend a couple more this summer.

Officiating is something that is important to me, and i always try to be the best official i can be in the hopes of advancing up through high school to college and university ball.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ref18
After reading through these posts, i've got a few more points to add to my last post.

-All of my T's have been justified, a few have been about the negative reactions of coaches to my calls, in particular there was an instance with a disconcertion call, and another one with a player control foul.

I've had one assistant coach ask me why I didn't make a call in my partner's area, i resonded, i was watching my area for off ball contact, etc, and he resonded, well you should be watching the game. Easy T there, wouldn't you think.

As I said most of them came from rec leagues, and middle school leagues, usually where a parent just volunteered for the coaching job. I haven't set foot on a high school court yet, because i'm still in high school. But when i do, i know i have to change the way I handle the coaches.

My assignor seems to like the job i do, because i am constantly getting a very good selection of games. (At least i hope its because i do a good job, not because he can't find anyone else to do them ) I've attended camps, I'm going to attend a couple more this summer.

Officiating is something that is important to me, and i always try to be the best official i can be in the hopes of advancing up through high school to college and university ball.

Listen don't take any of the negative posts in this thread too seriously.What I was saying is look at each case and see what happened and why.That is how we learn.I've done enough games at that level to know that the coaching can be nonexistent and they think that their job is to yell at the officials.I tend to be far less tolerant in games with younger kids because if you let the coach go,the kids follow,and why send the wrong message to the kids.

As for changing your ways at the next level,I'd say work on it now.Heck,you may not have much to do,but game management is important.

You have passion,so keep working hard,and always learn from your experiences,both good and bad.

[DJ]

I never give any technical fouls. You have to earn them. I give so few and they are such a rare comodity that people who get them feel priviledged to have gotten one from me and thank me for sharing such a rare and cherished event!

[mnref14]

I had a feeling you were probably working a level where you have unexperienced coaches, who probably don't know how to handle themselves in an appropriate manner. Keep working hard, keep taking it seriously, find someone in your area who is experienced and a solid official and follow them around. Good luck. Enough said on this topic for me.

[Hawks Coach]

ref18
I really can't tell you, nor can anybody else, what your cut-of point should be. To me, one of them sounded like it could go either way, you chose to make it a T, so be it.

I will say that I have watched numerous HS games this winter (probably 35-40), both varsity and JV. Zero Ts. I saw three coaches who really seemed to want to get Td, and the refs did not do it. These refs managed the games quite well in all cases. I would say that they could have chosen to T the coach in any of 6 games I observed, passed every time.

I just watched three state semifinals last night. One was a double overtime game that had both coaches off their seats numerous times over calls. The most difficult one was a foul called with 0.7 seconds left, game tied in second overtime. Call was very questionable, and coach was clearly upset. Trail dealt with the coach, clearly told him to settle down (appeared to be suggesting that 2 FTs was better than 4+possesion!). All in all, the game was not the best officiated that I have seen this year, but they were not quick to T and they let the play on the court decide the game. At no time did they appear to lose control of things, so regardless of what was said or how it was said, they were able to manage the game without issuing the T. A shorter fuse, and the T probably could have been issued.

All of this means nothing with respect to your case because I haven't watched your games. But I don't see that your Ts are the "had to do it" variety from your descriptions. Over time, if you find that your T rate is higher than most, you may want to think about whether you are handling things in the best manner possible. And you may decide that you are. I believe if you consistently vary significantly from what others are doing, you need to reflect a bit and watch how others handle similar situations to guide your own actions.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
ref18
I really can't tell you, nor can anybody else, what your cut-of point should be. To me, one of them sounded like it could go either way, you chose to make it a T, so be it.

I will say that I have watched numerous HS games this winter (probably 35-40), both varsity and JV. Zero Ts. I saw three coaches who really seemed to want to get Td, and the refs did not do it. These refs managed the games quite well in all cases. I would say that they could have chosen to T the coach in any of 6 games I observed, passed every time.

I just watched three state semifinals last night. One was a double overtime game that had both coaches off their seats numerous times over calls. The most difficult one was a foul called with 0.7 seconds left, game tied in second overtime. Call was very questionable, and coach was clearly upset. Trail dealt with the coach, clearly told him to settle down (appeared to be suggesting that 2 FTs was better than 4+possesion!). All in all, the game was not the best officiated that I have seen this year, but they were not quick to T and they let the play on the court decide the game. At no time did they appear to lose control of things, so regardless of what was said or how it was said, they were able to manage the game without issuing the T. A shorter fuse, and the T probably could have been issued.

All of this means nothing with respect to your case because I haven't watched your games. But I don't see that your Ts are the "had to do it" variety from your descriptions. Over time, if you find that your T rate is higher than most, you may want to think about whether you are handling things in the best manner possible. And you may decide that you are. I believe if you consistently vary significantly from what others are doing, you need to reflect a bit and watch how others handle similar situations to guide your own actions.

One thing to mention is that the threshold for technicals is different in most places in rec and in organized school ball. Coaches can be fined and/or suspended and/or fired if they receive technicals and are usually better behaved because they know this.

I have less tolerance and feel less of a need to work with rec coaches who are simply there as an adult who thinks that Bobby Knight is a good role model. Those guys get whacked early and often when I work. I don't get emotional, I just let them know (with the call) that the behavior is not acceptable.

You find a big difference at higher levels. You will have to be able to talk to a coach and you'll have to agree to disagree on certain things without taking it personally. Less T's but a lot more talking and a lot better communication.

When I was where you are, I probably called a similar number.

--Rich

[Hawks Coach]

agreed - and really, most experienced varsity coaches have a lot better rules knowledge than the average rec coach, even if they don't have it all down cold. They also tend to understand the flow of the game and how that effects everything, including calls and no-calls (again -MOST!). So you don't deal with nearly as much stupid stuff at that level, though the exceptions still are out there.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
ref18
I really can't tell you, nor can anybody else, what your cut-of point should be. To me, one of them sounded like it could go either way, you chose to make it a T, so be it.

I will say that I have watched numerous HS games this winter (probably 35-40), both varsity and JV. Zero Ts. I saw three coaches who really seemed to want to get Td, and the refs did not do it. These refs managed the games quite well in all cases. I would say that they could have chosen to T the coach in any of 6 games I observed, passed every time.

I just watched three state semifinals last night. One was a double overtime game that had both coaches off their seats numerous times over calls. The most difficult one was a foul called with 0.7 seconds left, game tied in second overtime. Call was very questionable, and coach was clearly upset. Trail dealt with the coach, clearly told him to settle down (appeared to be suggesting that 2 FTs was better than 4+possesion!). All in all, the game was not the best officiated that I have seen this year, but they were not quick to T and they let the play on the court decide the game. At no time did they appear to lose control of things, so regardless of what was said or how it was said, they were able to manage the game without issuing the T. A shorter fuse, and the T probably could have been issued.

All of this means nothing with respect to your case because I haven't watched your games. But I don't see that your Ts are the "had to do it" variety from your descriptions. Over time, if you find that your T rate is higher than most, you may want to think about whether you are handling things in the best manner possible. And you may decide that you are. I believe if you consistently vary significantly from what others are doing, you need to reflect a bit and watch how others handle similar situations to guide your own actions.

I'm not sure what one you are talking about,he only went into detail on one,and NO WAY an assistant coach says anything even CLOSE to what was described.That is a T EVERY time in my book.

Ref18 is working youth and middle school,there is a very good possibility that there are not ANY varsity officials working those games for him to observe under those conditions.

My question would be,how many other high school aged officials are working these games.Ref18 may be getting extra heat based on age.Coaches may not accept things because of that.

I'll finish with this,I'd be more than willing to work with ref18.

[ref18]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I'm not sure what one you are talking about,he only went into detail on one,and NO WAY an assistant coach says anything even CLOSE to what was described.That is a T EVERY time in my book.

Ref18 is working youth and middle school,there is a very good possibility that there are not ANY varsity officials working those games for him to observe under those conditions.

My question would be,how many other high school aged officials are working these games.Ref18 may be getting extra heat based on age.Coaches may not accept things because of that.

I'll finish with this,I'd be more than willing to work with ref18. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well we have quite a few young officials somewhere between 30-50, but they mostly do rec ball. I'm one of the few who've done a lot of the rep stuff. Last weekend I did the gold medal games for the 4A Atom boys and girls tournament. A lot of the highschool aged officials i've talked to are in it because of the money, and that's why they've probably not advanced that far.

And thanks for your vote of confidence.

[ref18]

Looking back on my notes of the T's i've given, i think there's only one that i'm a bit questionable on. A bit of backround on it, this team has two very lound and abnoxious coaches who've i had the pleasure of reffing at least 20 times in the past. I know with this team that if i don't do something early, it'll get ugly, so I call a very obvious player control foul, the ball-carrier lowered her shoulder and rammed it into the defender. I go to report it, as i'm walking past the bench, the assistant coach says, "Terrible, Terrible Call" I T him up, now the only thing was the way he said it. It was very softly and the only reason i heared it was because i was right infront of his chair. It sort of quieted the whole bench for the rest of the game, and i ran into that same team last weekend, and they were much better than in the past. So, i think it was a very good T, but that's as questionable as they get in my mind.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ref18
Looking back on my notes of the T's i've given, i think there's only one that i'm a bit questionable on. A bit of backround on it, this team has two very lound and abnoxious coaches who've i had the pleasure of reffing at least 20 times in the past. I know with this team that if i don't do something early, it'll get ugly, so I call a very obvious player control foul, the ball-carrier lowered her shoulder and rammed it into the defender. I go to report it, as i'm walking past the bench, the assistant coach says, "Terrible, Terrible Call" I T him up, now the only thing was the way he said it. It was very softly and the only reason i heared it was because i was right infront of his chair. It sort of quieted the whole bench for the rest of the game, and i ran into that same team last weekend, and they were much better than in the past. So, i think it was a very good T, but that's as questionable as they get in my mind.

Assistant coaches should not be talking to you period.Situation wise,this is me now,a word to the head coach to control his assistant might have worked as well.

That is one reason not to go by the bench when you report,you will hear things you may be better off not hearing.

[Hawks Coach]

Where does it say that the coach was talking to him? It seems to me, on reading his entire post, that this falls into the category of anticipating the call. He came in expecting the worst, and used the T as a game management tool. I am not impressed with this particular call.

As for the other T he cited, I did not intend to say that it was wrong to T in that specific case. I am saying that it is not an automatic T in that case, in my opinion. Could be given, could be handled in other ways. If you have a lot that are in this category, you will average more Ts than those who use other means first and T only when absolutely necessary.

Again, level of play and the conditions you face week in and week out also play into this, and I am sure that rec ball is worse than HS varsity. So maybe it is a tool that you bring out more quickly. With HS coaches, use the jeweler's screwdriver to adjust at first, and break out the hammer when necessary.

[ref18]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

With HS coaches, use the jeweler's screwdriver to adjust at first, and break out the hammer when necessary.

This is very true, i know that high school coaches cannot be handled in the same way. I will have to re-evaluate the way I deal with coaches when i start doing high school games.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Where does it say that the coach was talking to him? It seems to me, on reading his entire post, that this falls into the category of anticipating the call. He came in expecting the worst, and used the T as a game management tool. I am not impressed with this particular call.

As for the other T he cited, I did not intend to say that it was wrong to T in that specific case. I am saying that it is not an automatic T in that case, in my opinion. Could be given, could be handled in other ways. If you have a lot that are in this category, you will average more Ts than those who use other means first and T only when absolutely necessary.

Again, level of play and the conditions you face week in and week out also play into this, and I am sure that rec ball is worse than HS varsity. So maybe it is a tool that you bring out more quickly. With HS coaches, use the jeweler's screwdriver to adjust at first, and break out the hammer when necessary.

Coach,at that level it is about preparing these kids to play the right way.The coaches should be teaching fundamentals and we should be teaching them the rules.

Because of this,and the skill of the coaches at this level,I tend to be less tolerant of working the officials.That comes to the head coach,assistants are under
ZERO tolerance for unsporting behavior.If it is loud it is automatic,if it is personal like,"You should be watching the game," that is automatic too.The other case about the charge,I've addressed that,we should not report fouls close to the bench area and in that case I'd recommend pulling the head coach aside and tell him to control his assistant.