A weighty issue

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RecRef
BTW, I don’t for one-second buy the argument that Brad puts forward that it will prevent the confusion of a player throwing the ball to the opponent by mistake. How many sq. inches of green jersey shirt vs. whiteT-shirt is the thrower looking at when he is about to throw?

Well, I for one find it incredibly bewildering to look out over a sea of colors and try to choose which color on which player means defense vs offense. If there's only one contrasting T-shirt, it's not too bad, but if you allow any contrasting color, it really can get pretty confusing. And I've got more experience than these little 6th graders, most of whom have never played before this year.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by RecRef
Ok, it’s your rules and so be it in your games.

When you say Your rules, Its sounds like you are not aware its in NF and NCAA rule book.

BTW, I don’t for one-second buy the argument that Brad puts forward that it will prevent the confusion of a player throwing the ball to the opponent by mistake. How many sq. inches of green jersey shirt vs. whiteT-shirt is the thrower looking at when he is about to throw? Speaking of such things it time to leave for the gym.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, but you are mistaken. I've played all my life, and still do. I've seen it many times. I even had a player throw me a pass the other night when I was officiating. Players just see out of the corner of the eye a color. So its not just me its NF and NCAA. So many others disagree with you.

[footlocker]

I like enforcing the this rule. There are other refs in my association that do not. These other refs are a little loose in other areas as well. By enforcing this rule (usually before the game starts), it gives my partner and I the opportunity to show the players, coach and table that we are in control of the game and we know the rules.

When you don't do these small things, other things become problems.

[TriggerMN]

If the roof was leaking and the teachers worked in storage rooms, I'd hope that the school district would put more money towards fixing those problems first, and think of athletics second. It's not the officials' faults the player is overweight. Your sarcasm, as usual, is noted.

[Daryl H. Long]

quote:
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Originally posted by TriggerMN
Tuck it in. It's the school's problem, or her problem, that she doesn't have a jersey that fits. That's not my problem.
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Originally posted by Rainmaker
So when I start the National Fund to Buy Well-Fitting Uniforms for overweight players who attend school in impoverished districts where the roof leaks, and teachers have to work in storage rooms, you'll be the first to make a contribution?
__________________
There are some that are wise. And there are others that are otherwise.

Originally posted by TriggerMN
If the roof was leaking and the teachers worked in storage rooms, I'd hope that the school district would put more money towards fixing those problems first, and think of athletics second. It's not the officials' faults the player is overweight. Your sarcasm, as usual, is noted.

How do you know Rainmaker was being sarcastic? The comments could have had Sardonic implications or were just plain satirical remarks. Those that are wise always know their rules, especially definitions.

[footlocker]

You go rainmaker. Already too much disparity in school systems all over this country. Interesting reading "Amazing Grace" by Jonathan Kozol.

But I still ask the kids to tuck it in.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

When you say Your rules, Its sounds like you are not aware its in NF and NCAA rule book.

BTW, I don’t for one-second buy the argument that Brad puts forward that it will prevent the confusion of a player throwing the ball to the opponent by mistake. How many sq. inches of green jersey shirt vs. whiteT-shirt is the thrower looking at when he is about to throw? Speaking of such things it time to leave for the gym.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. I've played all my life, and still do. I've seen it many times. I even had a player throw me a pass the other night when I was officiating. Players just see out of the corner of the eye a color. So its not just me its NF and NCAA. So many others disagree with you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Let me see if I can paint this so that you will understand.

Go back and read Rainmaker’s original post in on this. We are talking about a “RECREATIONAL” league here NOT “NF or NCAA.” In my reply to Juulie I am presenting a different philosophy of running a rec league. We don’t emphasize or enforce things like uniform rules. We put our emphasis on providing a teaching environment, a fun environment, and safe environment for the kids. With programs for over 1800+ kids ages 5 to 18/19 and 400 adults, both men and woman, I say we are providing a service that our community is content with. Rainmaker’s area (dare I say part of the Left Coast) appears to have different way of looking at RECREATIONAL ball than we do in Northern Virginia. If the rec game she is talking about is in Padgett’s league, I know it is a fine organization. We corresponded about 5 years or so ago and my league adopted some of his leagues philosophy, though not all. I’ll add even more so you can be appalled with us. We don’t even follow the design rules of the NF for our jerseys. On top of that, we have numbers 6, 7, and 8 on our kids’ jerseys. We save $2.00 a jersey that way as each numeral cost a dollar. The NF may not like it but the $1300+ we save

Zooming out some, I have yet to walk into a gym, when I am doing a contracted rec game for my NF/IAABO association, where I don’t see all types of uniform and logo violations. Should I enforce NF rules? I think not.

I’ve also played basketball all of my life and I’ll be 56 before this season is over. This from “all skins” games during the 90-degree heat and 90 %humidity of New Orleans’ summers on school blacktops, through HS bench warmer, to college rec ball, to adult ball. I’ve never had a problem with identifying my team members.

Now if we are talking about a HS game sanctioned by the VHSL this is a different matter.

[jcarter]

Ok, i am not going to try and be the a$$ here and I hope I say this proper as I do not want to offend anyone. I know i am the new guy but I run into this alot in baseball/softball too.

I agree that it is a rule, and rules where meant to be inforced. That is why we are out there! Exspecially with the kids. Kids now a days are given to many reason to break rules. Kids also tend to to test the waters and see just how far they can go before something is said or done. Not just in sports but in life also.

Now i am not a cold hearted person and do understand that there are kids and teams and communities that do not have the money to make sure everyone has a perfectly fitting uniform.

But what I would do is politley pull this child over to the side with the coach and politically explain that we do have a rule about keeping the shirt tucked in. I would also explain that i understand the situation and what i would ask is that she just try to keep it tucked in the best she can and during dead balls I would kindly remind her and to not feel that I was " getting on her" about it. That i would just help her to try and remeber to tuck it in now and then.

I am a firm believer that rules are in place for a reason and every attempt should be made to adhere to them. But i also believe that kids whether poor or wealthy should get every opportunity to play.

Two years ago, I had a young man, about 12 years old. I was umpiring his baseball game. I was behind the plate. I noticed him at the begining of the game sitting on the bench with his glove on cheering on his team. After a couple of innings i asked the coach why he wasnt playing? Coach said because his parents didnt have the money to get him a uniform but he wanted to be part of the team so they put him on the roster and let him sit on the bench with his friends.

well the uniform rule in that league was not real strict, basically the shirts had to be matching colors with a number, shirts had to be tucked, hats must be worn properly and the must wear some type of sports shoe.

Well this team had white shirts with pin strips, So in talking with the coach, the coach really wanted to play him but other officials wouldnt let him play because he didnt have a matching shirt. I said well that is easily fixed in this situation.

So I went to my bag pulled out an extra, white T shirt that i always carry, went back to the concesion stand and got a black marker and put a number on the back of the shirt. Went to the kids parents and explained to them that if they would let him wear this shirt he could play in the game. They agreed and that was probably the happiest little man i have seen in a long time.

So i guess the moral to this book is that Yes we need to inforce the rules as they are written. But as an official you can also take that extra step to see that a kid that wants to play can play.

Again, Hope i didnt say anything to offend anyone I am at work and typing faster than my brain works... =)

[Edited by jcarter on Feb 16th, 2004 at 09:22 AM]

[TPS2859]

THANK YOU RAINMAKER!!!

I have an over weight daughter and the school (who's responibility it is to provide the uniforms) doesnt have anything close to fit, what should she do??? Sit out??

Her sport is not basketball, but bowling and she is ranked 17th in the state!

Her coach makes them tuck in there shirts as they do in basketball, so should my daughter sit out knowing that she can help them win a state title becouse her shirt doesnt fit.

Thank God the coach can see the big picture unlike you Tigger MN!!

[Bart Tyson]

the coach really wanted to play him but other officials wouldnt let him play because he didnt have a matching shirt. I said well that is easily fixed in this situation.

So I went to my bag pulled out an extra, white T shirt that i always carry, went back to the concesion stand and got a black marker and put a number on the back of the shirt. Went to the kids parents and explained to them that if they would let him wear this shirt he could play in the game. They agreed and that was probably the happiest little man i have seen in a long time.
[Edited by jcarter on Feb 16th, 2004 at 09:22 AM] [/B]

Great Story, I nominate you for the humanitarian award.

I agree at levels less than varsity, we should try to keep players in the game as far as uniforms are concerned.

[WinterWillie]

Originally posted by TPS2859
THANK YOU RAINMAKER!!!



Thank God the coach can see the big picture unlike you Tigger MN!!

Come on, lets not be to hard on Trigger MN, In Minnesota they have to keep those shirts tucked in because they only play outside in the winter.

[jcarter]

quote:
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the coach really wanted to play him but other officials wouldnt let him play because he didnt have a matching shirt. I said well that is easily fixed in this situation.

So I went to my bag pulled out an extra, white T shirt that i always carry, went back to the concesion stand and got a black marker and put a number on the back of the shirt. Went to the kids parents and explained to them that if they would let him wear this shirt he could play in the game. They agreed and that was probably the happiest little man i have seen in a long time.
[Edited by jcarter on Feb 16th, 2004 at 09:22 AM]
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Great Story, I nominate you for the humanitarian award.

I agree at levels less than varsity, we should try to keep players in the game as far as uniforms are concerned.






HEH, Thanks Bart. For me it is all about the kids. Even though this is my first year for basketball I have been umping softball/baseball for many years. Yes it is nice to do some high school games and I do some rec sports for that extra cash but for me it is donating my time to the local organizations for the kids. I think i actually work harder at the kids games than i do the adults because to me. It is more than just officiating when it is for the kids.

I feel that in this day and age most coaches do not teach rules to the kids in sports anymore. That is why i work harder for them because not only do I want to call a good game I want them to understand the rules behind the calls. It is not uncommon for me to stop in the middle of a game and explain why certain things happen.

I think that if the kids were taught more about the rules we would not get a lot of the tantrum throwing that we see in High School games and above. Currently it is all about making money to these kids now. How much money can I make in the futur playing this sport. Instead of learning and enjoying what it is to be part of a team and learning the ins and outs of a sport.

[Junker]

I've had this a few times this year. I've told the players that I understand the jersey not fitting well, but asked them to please make an effort (make sure you tuck it in during dead balls) to keep it in. Seems to work well.

[DJ]

Shirts should be tucked in for Fed. games but if an official says that he would not be strick about a rule for a good reason as stated earlier in this thread I would certainly respect his/her judgement. To loosely interpet and consistantly not inforce this rule in a general sense does no good for players, coaches and other referees who are trying to play by the rules. But for every rule there is an exception! Now what if someone else decides they are an exception too and they were an exception when the other referees were working. Here in lies the problem.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
If the roof was leaking and the teachers worked in storage rooms, I'd hope that the school district would put more money towards fixing those problems first, and think of athletics second. It's not the officials' faults the player is overweight. Your sarcasm, as usual, is noted.

Trigger, if I offended you, I'm sorry. Usually, the smart remark doesn't come quickly to mind, so my bite-my-tongue reflex is not well developed. I should have thought more carefully before I got so snippy. I'm just feeling touchy about the tax system here. In Portland, money doesn't go to fixing the roof, OR the athletics, and the uniforms are pathetic unless the kids can pull off a fundraiser, or some parents chip in. In the poorest couple of schools, this means that the uniforms are just plain awful. Even varsity doesn't always have matching unofirms, and seldom do they all fit even remotely. JV and freshmen are lucky if they have real jerseys, and haven't settled for T-shirts. It's not the officials fault, but it would be our fault to not let someone play because they are a bit overweight, and can't keep their shirt tucked.

Whew -- I'll get off the soapbox now