Coach loses cool..what would you do?

[Ref_in_Rehab]

NW Ref, District III here as well...

Thanks for the comments everyone. My chief concern at the time was keeping my composure and not look like I had a personal vendetta against this coach, obviously hindsight and your helpful responses show me I shouldn't have let his actions go unpunished at that time.

I don't know if I agree the argument that an F bomb equates to an automatic ejection, but with the spectacle he was making as he said things, I can see that tossing him right away would have been the best thing to do.

Just spoke with the commissioner BTW and of course he said, "you should've tossed him." Sounds like the AD at this school has already received complaints about the coach and his behavior and doesn't need much more of an excuse to ensure he doesn't come back next year. I'm writing a letter about the events of the other night and sounds like he will be disciplined.

Again, thanks for the insight! Seems like I always have to make a mistake once before I learn how to handle it the next game...ain't this reffing thing great?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2) Since you only charged him with a techncial foul for unsportsmanlike conduct, I would like to know what your partner was doing while Coach V was throwing more words at you on his way back to his team's bench. If Coach V was still running his mouth at you, then your partner should have been the "good cop" so to speak and explain to Coach V that if he doesn't cool down he is going to get his second technical foul from him and not you.
[/B]

I couldn't even finish reading this thread before I replied. The coach should have been tossed even if there was .1 on the clock.
Now, doesn't caps mean yelling when you type?

IF YOUR PARTNER CALLS A T ON A COACH DO NOT GO TO THAT COACH AND CONSOLE HIM. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY HE GOT A T, YOU DIDN'T GIVE IT TO HIM ANYWAY!

This happened to me last night. My partner gave a T to a coach and the coach wanted to talk to me. I was administering the free throws and he was like "ref come here." You know what I told him from the endline? "Coach, sit down." At that point that was all the communication I should have had with him. I wish my partner would go over to stroke, console, placate (if that is how you spell it) or do anything to appease a coach after he has received a T. If you are doing a 3-person game the best thing to do as the trail is step about 10 feet onto the court and watch the players with your back to the coach. Think of what message it sends to everyone and especially your partner for you to go over there to have a up close with the coach in that situation. NO NO NO!!!

Holy signatures batman, I didn't even see who posted the above until I was done with my post!!!!!!!!!

[Edited by tomegun on Feb 5th, 2004 at 06:12 AM]

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Since it was 0.1 and the game was decided (i.e., shooting a T wasn't going to change the outcome), going the way you did so as not to further inflame the situation may have been right. It may look better on the post game report that you weren't in a T-fest with this coach, that you were still able to exrcise self control and judgment when he was clearly not able to do so. Of course, he probably will be coaching the next game, which is the downside of not bouncing him. But a report to your superiors may result in further action, especially if your partner backs you now.

Spoken like a true coach. Coach V should have been in the locker room waiting for his team to come in period. I got burned at a huge camp because I didn't toss a coach. I was thinking "well I gave him one T." That is no longer an unwritten rule in my game. I would not give a coach two machine gun, quick, Ts but I have no problem giving a coach 2 and sending him. Everyone has their buttons and I have to swallow hard and agree with MTD and say I probably would have just sent him with the first one. We can all call the obvious stuff but what sets us apart is the controversy. You should have tossed him and had the commish on the phone before you cranked your car.

[bcooley66]

I don't think that the coaches dropping of the "F" bomb in this situation was a personal attack on you as an official, thus not warranting a flagrant T. On the other hand, if it gets personal to where he says something like, "you're an F!@#$ing something", then I would have to leaned towards a flagrant technical. I think that the standard technical foul was the appropriate call here, which you assessed. I feel a lot of coaches just get caught up in the moment of the game, and especially this one to where is was a close game. I think that by tossing him because he says thats F!@#$ing Bulls!@# to one of your calls, makes a travesty of the game. T him up, which is what you did, and get on with the game. Your partner screwed up however, by not going over to the coach following your T, and enforcing the seat belt rule. This might have helped you in the fact that your partner might have been able to help difuse the situation. However, when he made the threatening comment to you, you and your partner made a travesty of the game by not assessing the second technical foul on the coach and ejecting him. Also, like others have said, if you felt threatened in any way, you should have filed a police report on him. And at the very least, you would have had to file a report with your state activities association, explaining his unsporting and unethical behavior, to which they could have taken action against him. Don't let these things go un-noticed! You have to take care of business when it's warranted. I feel that this is why we as officials have such a hard time enforcing sportsmanship in the game today, because we allow players and coaches alike to get away with unsporting behavior like this. Don't be affraid to enforce the rules. It will make the game better for all of us involved, and I guarantee you that this coach would have also learned from his mistake after having had to sit out his next game. He probably would have also gained a little bit more respect for you as an official, following this ejection.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by tomegun

Spoken like a true coach. Coach V should have been in the locker room waiting for his team to come in period. I got burned at a huge camp because I didn't toss a coach. I was thinking "well I gave him one T." That is no longer an unwritten rule in my game. I would not give a coach two machine gun, quick, Ts but I have no problem giving a coach 2 and sending him. Everyone has their buttons and I have to swallow hard and agree with MTD and say I probably would have just sent him with the first one. We can all call the obvious stuff but what sets us apart is the controversy. You should have tossed him and had the commish on the phone before you cranked your car.

I am not sure why this is s
"spoken like a true coach." I am NOT defending the coach, nor am I suggesting that his conduct is not fitting of an immediate dismissal. I have NEVER behaved in this manner, nor would I. I do not condone it.

I am speaking like a member of the military who has been second guessed after action about what I should have done by people who never saw the situation I was in. I think it is easy to fall back on rules, when actual situations may lead you to a different conclusion at that time.

And since you want to draw inferences about what I said not based on its content, but rather who and what I am, I feel compelled to add:

Spoken like a ref who won't listen to anything a coach has to say because he is a coach and the ref already has decided to ignore all coaches.

I deal with some refs like that.

[DJ]

I have a question? Was the coach very vocal during the entire game and if so was there any attempt to get on top of the situation?
Sometimes if we don't take care of it early it will have a tendency to get worse as the game goes on and blow up in the end.

I agree that if my partner has a problem many times it is better if I take some of the heat off of him. This will work if I am a strong official and have confidence in my abilities. Double barrels have twice the knockdown power!

Even though you choose not to eject, you may want to file a game report anyway and creat discussion with those who are responsible for these issues.

It is not an easy issue and you handled it the best that you could in a very difficult situation. Ignoring or ejecting it is not an easy choice. I think becuase as we all know we are nice guys we have a tendency to finish last no matter what we decide.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I am not sure why this is s
"spoken like a true coach." I am NOT defending the coach, nor am I suggesting that his conduct is not fitting of an immediate dismissal. I have NEVER behaved in this manner, nor would I. I do not condone it.

I am speaking like a member of the military who has been second guessed after action about what I should have done by people who never saw the situation I was in. I think it is easy to fall back on rules, when actual situations may lead you to a different conclusion at that time.

And since you want to draw inferences about what I said not based on its content, but rather who and what I am, I feel compelled to add:

Spoken like a ref who won't listen to anything a coach has to say because he is a coach and the ref already has decided to ignore all coaches.

I deal with some refs like that. [/B]

I'm in the military too and that does not matter one bit in this situation. Basketball is basketball and the coach should have been ejected. Now the coach probably thinks he can do the same thing to the next official. Is that fair to the next official. I made my statement "spoken like a coach" because you did defend him when you said he shouldn't have given him the second T. Someone should have done it! As far as your comment about me not listening to a coach, I go into every game with professionalism. If I did your game and you came up and told me who you were it wouldn't matter to me one bit because I don't know how you act as a coach and I'm not there to worry about that. The bottom line that gets lost in all of this is we are the caretakers of the game. If everything stayed legal and the ball never went out of bounds we wouldn't be needed. We are not there for you to yell at us nor are we there to make smart comments to coaches. When that interaction stays respectful then there is no problem. A coach is there to coach and we are there to ref. If a coach says something like this coach said that is outside MY boundries for acceptable behavior. Don't you know that the best coaches and refs are great communicators? The best coaches rarely, if ever, say or do something to come close to getting tossed. I don't go into a game looking to T a coach up. I don't care about the coach that much. I have listened to you and I think you are wrong but I can see why you would say what you said so I can take it.

[Hawks Coach]

tomegun
You obviously do not read what I write. I never said he should or should not have given him a T - I clearly said that we could not definitively give an answer to that without having been there in his situation.

I said that by rule he clearly should give him a T. I also said that he may have wanted to consider his personal situation and whether or not giving the second T was going to make it worse. With 0.1 left, it would not affect the game outcome, so if he felt it would make matters worse to T, I could understand him not doing it.

This has absolutely nothing to do with me being or not being a coach. You need to take the time to read my full argument and understand my reasoning, rather than assuming that I am arguing a certain point because I am defending coaches or taking a coach's perspective. This is the second thread in which you have chosen to completely ignore my line of reasoning and eliminate further discussion with the"he's just a coach, we expect nothing less from him" type of reasoning. I think if you read my posts you would understand that I do not just take a parochial coach perspective.

As a coach, I have rarely heard obscenity directed at a ref from the bench (I'm not saying never, but very rarely). More often from the stands and the players, as well as from coaches to players. I have NEVER used profane language toward my players or my referees in over 400 games of basketball coaching and countless practices.

So from this coach's perspective, my opponent who is acting like a total idiot should be gone. But I won't object with 0.1 seconds left and my team safely leading and holding the ball, if you choose to ignore the bozo and get the game over with. More than anything else, I want to get my team off the floor and out of this crazy gym anyway.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by bcooley66
I don't think that the coaches dropping of the "F" bomb in this situation was a personal attack on you as an official, thus not warranting a flagrant T. On the other hand, if it gets personal to where he says something like, "you're an F!@#$ing something", then I would have to leaned towards a flagrant technical. I think that the standard technical foul was the appropriate call here, which you assessed. I feel a lot of coaches just get caught up in the moment of the game, and especially this one to where is was a close game. I think that by tossing him because he says thats F!@#$ing Bulls!@# to one of your calls, makes a travesty of the game. T him up, which is what you did, and get on with the game. Your partner screwed up however, by not going over to the coach following your T, and enforcing the seat belt rule. This might have helped you in the fact that your partner might have been able to help difuse the situation. However, when he made the threatening comment to you, you and your partner made a travesty of the game by not assessing the second technical foul on the coach and ejecting him. Also, like others have said, if you felt threatened in any way, you should have filed a police report on him. And at the very least, you would have had to file a report with your state activities association, explaining his unsporting and unethical behavior, to which they could have taken action against him. Don't let these things go un-noticed! You have to take care of business when it's warranted. I feel that this is why we as officials have such a hard time enforcing sportsmanship in the game today, because we allow players and coaches alike to get away with unsporting behavior like this. Don't be affraid to enforce the rules. It will make the game better for all of us involved, and I guarantee you that this coach would have also learned from his mistake after having had to sit out his next game. He probably would have also gained a little bit more respect for you as an official, following this ejection.

Before I go any further in this thread I should state that I have been on constructions sites all of my life. Some of my best friends will tell you that my language can be colorful at times. Having been on constructions sites all of my life has probably made my language more colorful that most people. If you hair is straight, I can make it curly. If you hair is curly, I can make it straight. If you have hair, I can make it fall out. If you are bald, I can make you grow it. I think everyone is gettin my point. None-the-less, I am very careful about where I use my colorful language and around whom I use my colorful language. I will defend to the death every person's First Amendment rights and will fight tirelessly against censorship. However, civility, good manners, and good manners dictates that there are times when one must use good judgement as to the type of language one uses. I am not advocating the everyday use of the F-bomb, but there are far more instances when using the F-bomb is nothing more the vulgar conduct, than coloful language.

If one reads NFHS R4-S19-A4, one sees the vulgar conduct is a flagrant technical foul. Coach V's language was directed toward a game official and his use of the F-bomb was vulgar conduct and therefore, should have been charged with a technical foul.

[footlocker]

I agree with with a few things here.

1. The unsporting T was prbably appropriate. The comments weren't personal (at this point). You only have a frustrated coach that likely lost the game. Your T probably puts the game out of reach. Punishment enough and you made your point that you won't tolerate that behavior. A Flagrant T will do more to incite the fans.

2. Ok. Fine. Your partner failed you. That sucks. Still, you have to toss on the threatening remarks. Sounds like everyone in the gym would know why he got this one. Moreover, a flagrant T is more than warranted here. This will be backed up by your game report. Coach deservingly misses his next contest. And if you ever see him again, he knows you will take care of business.

Nice job the way you handled this though. Your thoughts make sense. We have the benefit of time to gather our thoughts.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by footlocker
I agree with with a few things here.

1. The unsporting T was prbably appropriate. The comments weren't personal (at this point). You only have a frustrated coach that likely lost the game. Your T probably puts the game out of reach. Punishment enough and you made your point that you won't tolerate that behavior. A Flagrant T will do more to incite the fans.

2. Ok. Fine. Your partner failed you. That sucks. Still, you have to toss on the threatening remarks. Sounds like everyone in the gym would know why he got this one. Moreover, a flagrant T is more than warranted here. This will be backed up by your game report. Coach deservingly misses his next contest. And if you ever see him again, he knows you will take care of business.

Nice job the way you handled this though. Your thoughts make sense. We have the benefit of time to gather our thoughts.

I do not agree with your Item (1). The F-bomb is vulgar conduct and to make it worse it was directed toward the game official. I do not care how frustrated the coach is, he dropped an F-bomb and he directed his remarks against the offical who made the call and while questioning his judgement. Remember that the rules difine vulgar conduct as a flagrant technical foul.

[AK ref SE]

First I will say that for me personally the F-Bomb is very vulgar to me. Now, If the comment was that is F@#@ing B@#@#. I would have given a T. I don't think I would have assessed a Flagrant T. If it was the F-bomb would have been followed by "you". I would be sending the coach to the showers. It all depends on the situation. I may have acted differently if I was doing the game. It is easy in the forum to say what you would do. In the game is totally different unless you are a robot!

AK ref SE

[davidw]

Totally agree with MTD on this. Who are his comments directed to? They were obviously directed to the official and about his judgement. They most certainly are vulgar. As Mark said, "If this is not vulgar, what is???"

All that said, would I have issued the appropriate flagrant T at that time? I'm sitting here trying to visualize me being there and I can honestly say, "I'm not sure". I can actually see me giving a simple T at that point, when I probably should have gone with the flagrant and sent him to the showers. So I definitely empathize with Ref in Rehab.

Most certainly the threat draws another T and this time not the 'simple one'. He's gone. Obviously, he's got his second direct (automatic ejection) but his second is also deemed flagrant by me and I'm making sure it is in the book as such--because when I make my necessary post-game reports--I want everything very clearly understood by all what his actions were.

Ref in Rehab, overall I think you did as well as you could. You, like all of us, learn from each game. What you have done is given us an opportunity to learn from your experiance. Hopefully, when we are now faced with similar situations, we will be better equipped to handle more appropriately.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by tomegun

IF YOUR PARTNER CALLS A T ON A COACH DO NOT GO TO THAT COACH AND CONSOLE HIM. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY HE GOT A T, YOU DIDN'T GIVE IT TO HIM ANYWAY!

[/B]

I would not want my partner to go baby sit the coach. If the coach doesn't sit down, then my partner should inform him he is to remain seated. If coach wants to talk, No coach not now and walk away. You are still being respectful and sending a message that his actions were unacceptable to all officials.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

I would not want my partner to go baby sit the coach. If the coach doesn't sit down, then my partner should inform him he is to remain seated. If coach wants to talk, No coach not now and walk away. You are still being respectful and sending a message that his actions were unacceptable to all officials. [/B]

I get the feeling that some of you think that if my partner whacked a coach, I am going over and console the coach:

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!

When an official whacks a head coach the following things have to happen in following order:

1) He needs to get away from the coach.
2) He needs to get with his partner(s) and let them know
what happened.
3) While he is reporting the technical foul, another
member of the officiating crew needs to go to the coach
and do the following in this order:
In a professional manner and tone:
a) Inform the coach, why he received a technical
foul, be brief and do not discuss the foul with
the coach.
b) Inform the coach that he has lost his coaching
box privileges.
c) Inform the coach that he will be disqualified
and ejected if he receives another direct
technical foul.
This should take no longer that it will take for the
calling official to report the foul and make sure the
direct technical foul is counted against the team's
seven and ten for a half and to get a shooter from
the shooting team.
4) Shoot the free throws and administer the throw-in.
5) Only bad things happen when the ball is dead, and dead
ball efficiency is important when a head coach receives
a technical foul. The best thing that one can do is to
get the ball back into play without sacrificing
efficiency.