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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 03, 2004, 11:17pm
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Question

Boys varsity game, tied in overtime...clock winding down with the home team working for the last shot. I'm working T and the shot goes up from my primary, missed, but the defender slams into the still airborne shooter and knocks him to the groung...TWEET!, 2 shots with 2.6 seconds on the clock.

I turn around fully expecting to see the visiting coach approaching halfcourt with an angry look on his face, of course he is along with sharing his opinion of my call. I extend my hand in his direction and say "get back coach", report the foul and indicate 2 shots. He wants an explanation and I say "airborne shooter coach, your kid hit him hard" to which he responds "that's f-ing BS!" I calmly put my whistle in my mouth, blow it, and say give my mechanic and point toward the bench, walking away to administer the FT's while he's throwing a few more choice words away from me as he's walking back to his bench. I'm at the far baseline from him while the home team sinks 3 or the 4, then inbounds from halfcourt, gets fouled and then makes 1 of 2 to go up by 4 points with 1.5 to go...game out of reach now.

From the my end of the court he's yelling to his stat person "make sure we have his name in the book, he's going to get it", etc. Then we have a dead ball with 0.1 sec left, and he's pointing at me saying "I'm going to find you later" . Obviously the thought of tossing him runs through my mind, but I'm a huge confrontation would've ensued, so I elect just to get the game over with and ignore the fool and we get out of the gym without any incident.

Here's my question... what would you guys (or ladies) do?

I got home shortly thereafter and called my commissioner to report the incident, stating that I didn't toss him, but he did make some threats and I wanted to make a formal complaint.
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Old Tue Feb 03, 2004, 11:23pm
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Thumbs up

you handled it perfectly...nice job, maybe write down what happened in case someone needs to know, while it is fresh in your memory
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 03, 2004, 11:27pm
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Angry

Rehab,
I don't think I would have passed on the second T. When he threatens you, that requires an immediate T with an ejection. Upon the ejection you submit a report the the High School League and he sits another game. By not ejecting him, he could do this to another official in the next game.
JMHO
By the way, what did your partners have to say on the matter and why didn't one of them run him?
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 03, 2004, 11:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref_in_Rehab
Boys varsity game, tied in overtime...clock winding down with the home team working for the last shot. I'm working T and the shot goes up from my primary, missed, but the defender slams into the still airborne shooter and knocks him to the groung...TWEET!, 2 shots with 2.6 seconds on the clock.

I turn around fully expecting to see the visiting coach approaching halfcourt with an angry look on his face, of course he is along with sharing his opinion of my call. I extend my hand in his direction and say "get back coach", report the foul and indicate 2 shots. He wants an explanation and I say "airborne shooter coach, your kid hit him hard" to which he responds "that's f-ing BS!" I calmly put my whistle in my mouth, blow it, and say give my mechanic and point toward the bench, walking away to administer the FT's while he's throwing a few more choice words away from me as he's walking back to his bench. I'm at the far baseline from him while the home team sinks 3 or the 4, then inbounds from halfcourt, gets fouled and then makes 1 of 2 to go up by 4 points with 1.5 to go...game out of reach now.

From the my end of the court he's yelling to his stat person "make sure we have his name in the book, he's going to get it", etc. Then we have a dead ball with 0.1 sec left, and he's pointing at me saying "I'm going to find you later" . Obviously the thought of tossing him runs through my mind, but I'm a huge confrontation would've ensued, so I elect just to get the game over with and ignore the fool and we get out of the gym without any incident.

Here's my question... what would you guys (or ladies) do?

I got home shortly thereafter and called my commissioner to report the incident, stating that I didn't toss him, but he did make some threats and I wanted to make a formal complaint.

1) If Coach V had just said: "That's B.S.!" Then I would have charged him with an unsportsmanlike conduct. But Coach V used an F-bomb, and that is a flagrant technical foul in my opinion, and Coach V should have been disqualified and ejected on a single flagrant technical foul.

2) Since you only charged him with a techncial foul for unsportsmanlike conduct, I would like to know what your partner was doing while Coach V was throwing more words at you on his way back to his team's bench. If Coach V was still running his mouth at you, then your partner should have been the "good cop" so to speak and explain to Coach V that if he doesn't cool down he is going to get his second technical foul from him and not you.

3) I am not sure where you are on the court in relation to Team V's bench when Coach V was yelling to his stat person, but if his remarks were meant to show you up, your partner needed to step up and take care of business with Coach V.

4) Dead ball with 0.1 sec and Coach V yells at you: "I am going to find you later!" That is a flagrant technical foul itself and either you or your partner, whoever was closer should have gave to him. The time on the clock has no bearing on the situtation. Coach V comments can be and should be interpreted as a threat of physical violence.

5) Coach V should have been tossed from the game. But his comments with respect to finding you later still need to be reported to the IdahoHSAA and you should have made a police report of it immediately after the game while still in the officials' dressing room. And I still would make a police report.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 03, 2004, 11:42pm
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Quote:
By the way, what did your partners have to say on the matter and why didn't one of them run him?
You beat me to the punch. After you gave the stop sign and the T your partner should have had your back. since you went
across court after the fouls and heard it your partner surely heard it to and should have finished the job.
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Old Tue Feb 03, 2004, 11:42pm
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Wink

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought my partner could've helped....

He said as we got off the court that he thought I did a great job handling the situation, avoiding a confrontation, and keeping my cool. I know he heard what I the coach was saying, and was kind of hoping he could at least tell the coach to put a sock in it or give him another
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 12:30am
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Sharing a lesson learned

This coach's conduct is something that needs to be corralled ASAP. I agree that your partner should have assessed the 2nd T while you were administering the FTs.

There was another opportunity to give him the message when he openly made the threats. Again, your partner lacked the fortitude to assess the long overdue T.
================================================== ========
Personal Note:

We have a local coach who has a reputation for acting very similar to the coach in your situation. Three years ago, I witnessed him first-hand as a visiting coach in my first varsity game (as the Referee). My mentor worked this game with me as the U.

Throughout the game the visiting coach made the "nickel and dime" comments, i.e. "travel", "block", et al.

Fast-forward to end of game situation:

I should have T'd the visiting coach when he continued to "vent" while my partner administered the (double-bonus) FTs for a call he made w/ 7 secs remaining in the 2-pt game.

A1 makes first FT. The second FT bounced wide to my side, A2 rebounds and is fouled on the put-back. Coach loudly howls "terrible" call. My partner should have given him the "universal" stop sign, etc...

A2 makes both FT and home team goes on to win. Visiting coach is coming onto the court after me and berating me for the "Bullsh**" call. The game manager physically intervened to allow my partner and I to get out of the gym.

Regrettably, I did not file any documentation with either the police or the state association about this incident. Needless to say, I would have handled it differently today.

In hindsight, I was a relatively new official who did not have what it took (at that time) to take charge of that situation. It was a lesson learned the hard way, but I have had opportunities to "redeem" myself. Unfortunatedly, they were not with this same "coach." Maybe next year?
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 08:40am
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While your partner certainly should have helped, and I would have expected such from my partner. I'd say in hindsight that you should have gone ahead and given him the 2nd T yourself. He was practically begging for it, and the final comments should have been an automatic.
I agree with MTD on this.

aw
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref_in_Rehab
Boys varsity game, tied in overtime...clock winding down with the home team working for the last shot. I'm working T and the shot goes up from my primary, missed, but the defender slams into the still airborne shooter and knocks him to the groung...TWEET!, 2 shots with 2.6 seconds on the clock.

I turn around fully expecting to see the visiting coach approaching halfcourt with an angry look on his face, of course he is along with sharing his opinion of my call. I extend my hand in his direction and say "get back coach", report the foul and indicate 2 shots. He wants an explanation and I say "airborne shooter coach, your kid hit him hard" to which he responds "that's f-ing BS!" I calmly put my whistle in my mouth, blow it, and say give my mechanic and point toward the bench, walking away to administer the FT's while he's throwing a few more choice words away from me as he's walking back to his bench. I'm at the far baseline from him while the home team sinks 3 or the 4, then inbounds from halfcourt, gets fouled and then makes 1 of 2 to go up by 4 points with 1.5 to go...game out of reach now.

From the my end of the court he's yelling to his stat person "make sure we have his name in the book, he's going to get it", etc. Then we have a dead ball with 0.1 sec left, and he's pointing at me saying "I'm going to find you later" . Obviously the thought of tossing him runs through my mind, but I'm a huge confrontation would've ensued, so I elect just to get the game over with and ignore the fool and we get out of the gym without any incident.

Here's my question... what would you guys (or ladies) do?

I got home shortly thereafter and called my commissioner to report the incident, stating that I didn't toss him, but he did make some threats and I wanted to make a formal complaint.
There's a saying we have in baseball -- if there isn't an ejection then you really didn't have a problem. If you're reporting something this flagrant, there'd better be a corresponding penalty given on the field.

That isn't always the case in basketball (we have technicals and not just ejections), but by not penalizing what was a direct threat you weaken anything you submit at this point. Call the flagrant technical, finish the game, and THEN file your reports.
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 04:53pm
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Ref n rehab

What district are you in? Dist 3 here.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 05:09pm
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Flagrant tech on the initial comment, possibly, but I'm not necessarily sold on that. The T was probably enough, but everyone has their own standard with respect to profanity.

As for the second incident, which consisted of not stopping and threatening, you could easily go with the flagrant. A simple second T would also eject, but I think it is important once there was a threat to note that this was a flagrant anyway - and it's the appropriate call. And it clearly would have been best coming from your partner - he booted this one more than you did.

Since it was 0.1 and the game was decided (i.e., shooting a T wasn't going to change the outcome), going the way you did so as not to further inflame the situation may have been right. It may look better on the post game report that you weren't in a T-fest with this coach, that you were still able to exrcise self control and judgment when he was clearly not able to do so. Of course, he probably will be coaching the next game, which is the downside of not bouncing him. But a report to your superiors may result in further action, especially if your partner backs you now.
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 06:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref_in_Rehab
Boys varsity game, tied in overtime...clock winding down with the home team working for the last shot. I'm working T and the shot goes up from my primary, missed, but the defender slams into the still airborne shooter and knocks him to the groung...TWEET!, 2 shots with 2.6 seconds on the clock.

I turn around fully expecting to see the visiting coach approaching halfcourt with an angry look on his face, of course he is along with sharing his opinion of my call. I extend my hand in his direction and say "get back coach", report the foul and indicate 2 shots. He wants an explanation and I say "airborne shooter coach, your kid hit him hard" to which he responds "that's f-ing BS!" I calmly put my whistle in my mouth, blow it, and say give my mechanic and point toward the bench
This is close to a flagrant T from me. Good call though - it's definetely a T. Sounds like the shooter was fouled and the appropriate call was made. Of course he's not going to like it, in the dying seconds of the game. He went overboard and was dealt with.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ref_in_Rehab
walking away to administer the FT's while he's throwing a few more choice words away from me as he's walking back to his bench. I'm at the far baseline from him while the home team sinks 3 or the 4, then inbounds from halfcourt, gets fouled and then makes 1 of 2 to go up by 4 points with 1.5 to go...game out of reach now.

From the my end of the court he's yelling to his stat person "make sure we have his name in the book, he's going to get it",
At this point, I have a flagrant technical foul. Threatening an official is a flagrant T. Even though a 2nd T would reseult in an ejection, a flagrant T is still warranted. I would never downgrade simply because it is his 2nd T.

However, where were your Ps during all of this? One of them (Or the other one could have gone over to the coach and tried to subdue the sitch.

The threat he made should be written down and submitted to the game mgmt or your local executive or however you would normally handle this. Possibly even a police report.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ref_in_Rehab
etc. Then we have a dead ball with 0.1 sec left, and he's pointing at me saying "I'm going to find you later" .
Again, a flagrant T if not given one already. If he said a comment like this after the 2nd T, I would warn the administrator that the game may be forfeited if he keeps it up, and that the police will be called. Also, a full report for uttering a threat should be filed with the police.

But again, your Ps could have taken care of this. You took care of business at the beginning, so they should, or when it's apparent that they're not going to, you should take care of the rest of business.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ref_in_Rehab
Obviously the thought of tossing him runs through my mind, but I'm a huge confrontation would've ensued, so I elect just to get the game over with and ignore the fool and we get out of the gym without any incident.

Here's my question... what would you guys (or ladies) do?

I got home shortly thereafter and called my commissioner to report the incident, stating that I didn't toss him, but he did make some threats and I wanted to make a formal complaint.
What did your commissioner say?

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Feb 4th, 2004 at 05:31 PM]
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 09:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Flagrant tech on the initial comment, possibly, but I'm not necessarily sold on that. The T was probably enough, but everyone has their own standard with respect to profanity.

As for the second incident, which consisted of not stopping and threatening, you could easily go with the flagrant. A simple second T would also eject, but I think it is important once there was a threat to note that this was a flagrant anyway - and it's the appropriate call. And it clearly would have been best coming from your partner - he booted this one more than you did.

Since it was 0.1 and the game was decided (i.e., shooting a T wasn't going to change the outcome), going the way you did so as not to further inflame the situation may have been right. It may look better on the post game report that you weren't in a T-fest with this coach, that you were still able to exrcise self control and judgment when he was clearly not able to do so. Of course, he probably will be coaching the next game, which is the downside of not bouncing him. But a report to your superiors may result in further action, especially if your partner backs you now.

Coach:

I have to disagree with you about the first technical. Coach V's F-bomb is an automatic flagrant technical foul. The threat of physical violence is also a flagrant technical foul even though there is 0.1 seconds left in the game. Anything less threatens the integrity of the game and the sport.

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 10:37pm
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Mark
In your mind, the F bomb may get you tossed. I have yet to read a rule or case that specifically cites the F word as an ejection. Please direct me to that rule/case so I may be better educated. Until you can, I will continue to allow people to make their own judgments about whether this is the little t or the BIG T.

Love your reading of the rules with respect to second sitch- but this is not about the rules or the integrity of the game/sport (which I DON'T agree he threatened by failing to award a T). The calling or not calling of anything with .1 seconds left is best left to the discretion of the person on the spot at the time. The mess can be addressed later in a post game report, but nothing says he MUST assess the second T if he can get the ball in play, kill the clock, and get out of the gym. There are clearly reasons to do so, and reasons not to do so. He has to make that call at the time by himself, and none of your after action second guessing can change that.

I won't tell him what he should have done. I will help him consider various ways he could deal with this sitch - and each has advantages and disadvantages. He can choose what he thinks best fit the circumstances he faced that night. Or he can just be wrong as viewed from your seat.
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Old Wed Feb 04, 2004, 11:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Mark
In your mind, the F bomb may get you tossed. I have yet to read a rule or case that specifically cites the F word as an ejection. Please direct me to that rule/case so I may be better educated. Until you can, I will continue to allow people to make their own judgments about whether this is the little t or the BIG T.

Love your reading of the rules with respect to second sitch- but this is not about the rules or the integrity of the game/sport (which I DON'T agree he threatened by failing to award a T). The calling or not calling of anything with .1 seconds left is best left to the discretion of the person on the spot at the time. The mess can be addressed later in a post game report, but nothing says he MUST assess the second T if he can get the ball in play, kill the clock, and get out of the gym. There are clearly reasons to do so, and reasons not to do so. He has to make that call at the time by himself, and none of your after action second guessing can change that.

I won't tell him what he should have done. I will help him consider various ways he could deal with this sitch - and each has advantages and disadvantages. He can choose what he thinks best fit the circumstances he faced that night. Or he can just be wrong as viewed from your seat.


NFHS R4-S19-A4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. I may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

If dropping an F-bomb (especially when the word is being yelled directly at an official) is not a very good example of vulgar or abusive conduct, then what is vulgar or abusive conduct. In fact is is both vulgar and abusive conduct in the posted play in this thread.

With regard to the Coach V's actions with 0.1 seconds left in the game. That was a threat of physical violenc directed toward and official. The game was not over and such conduct needs to be penalized. By not penalizing it and then righting a report to the StateHSAA about Coach V's conduct, makes it very difficult for the StateHSAA to take diciplinary action against Coach V.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
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