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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 12:38pm
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Cool

High School game. I call travling on Team A player.He turns and has his back to me and say's fu*k you. I T him. The coach asked why the T and I explained to him what he had said. His reply to me was "He didn't say it to your face, so why did you give him a T" He also said, "In the heat of competition that I should have ignored it".

So you wonder why kids are the way they are today. That coach and player had no respect for the officials. But, mostly for the game itself.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 12:43pm
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Not judging cause it wasn't me, but I also would have tossed him. No doubt that you should have T'd him up...
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 12:44pm
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My first T of the season last night for profanity.

Player missed a wide open layup and "F-bombed" to nobody in particular.

Profanity is profanity
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 12:52pm
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RD,

I hope that it was so loud that everyone could hear it?

Profanity is not profanity. Everything has a context.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:05pm
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PS2Man:

My context... If I heard it, then someone else heard it. That is "my" context." The T is warranted.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by One-Whistle
PS2Man:

My context... If I heard it, then someone else heard it. That is "my" context." The T is warranted.
That of course is your right. You have to explain to a coach and possibly an evaluator why you gave a T to a kid for something no one heard. Then it does not help when the kid claims he did not say those words. Now what? You have that right to do that. I would just use some descretion and have a little word with that player.

Just my two cents on this issue.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:25pm
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PS2MAN,

Do you call a travel on a player if nobody saw it?? How about a foul??? It's your word against his on those...

This is the kind of stuff that you let go and it will only get worse later. You gotta deal with it immediately.

Clay,

You did exactly what I would have done and did do in the same situation about 2 weeks ago. I don't care who heard it and who did not hear it. I did and I am in charge of the game. Bravo.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by PS2Man
RD,

I hope that it was so loud that everyone could hear it?

Profanity is not profanity. Everything has a context.
PS2:

Unfortunately the fed does not see it this way.

Unsporting fouls:

10.7.A A player shall not disrepectfully address an official in such a manner to idicate resentment.

10.7.B Use profane or innapropriate language or obsence jestures.

Penalty for all is a T.

I agree that a cuss word said under the breath could go by with a talking to but addressing an official as in the obove case MUST be a T. IMO It is because we choose to "ignore" this much of the time that players and coaches see it as acceptable. If one official calls it correctly and another does not we loose consistancy. In my area (minnesota) the sportsmanship in BB has continually deteriorated since I have began officiating and IMO it is partially becaues we as officials do not strive for consistancy pertaining to what is andis not acceptable on the court. I agree that there is subjectivity here but I think sometimes we as officials give players and coaches so much rope we end up hanging ourselves as well as the game w/ it. My 2 cents.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:42pm
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MN 3SPORT REF,

Very well said, and your 2 cents very wll spent on your comment.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:49pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmckenna
PS2MAN,

Do you call a travel on a player if nobody saw it?? How about a foul??? It's your word against his on those...

This is the kind of stuff that you let go and it will only get worse later. You gotta deal with it immediately.

I'm with PS2MAN on this. If a quick "f***!" or "s***!" is directed at no one after a blown play I'm letting it go, assuming the "kids" are old enough to shave. I might say something quietly to the guy later, if I remember.

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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:55pm
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Get rid of him!

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by cmckenna
PS2MAN,

Do you call a travel on a player if nobody saw it?? How about a foul??? It's your word against his on those...

This is the kind of stuff that you let go and it will only get worse later. You gotta deal with it immediately.

I'm with PS2MAN on this. If a quick "f***!" or "s***!" is directed at no one after a blown play I'm letting it go, assuming the "kids" are old enough to shave. I might say something quietly to the guy later, if I remember.

Lucky for the player that I wasn't doing the game. Profanity is profanity, but if I'm addressed by a player directly, then he's toast.

Maybe a T, maybe an ejection depending on what kind of mood I might be in or if I'd had any problems with the kid during the game.

Often I will say something to a kid in passing to watch your language etc., and then if he continues the proper penalties are applied.

Different topic, but same for a coach. He will usually get a reprimand from me if I hear him using profanity. He can do what he wants in the locker room, but the court is different.

Thanks
David
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 01:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Quote:
Originally posted by PS2Man
RD,

I hope that it was so loud that everyone could hear it?

Profanity is not profanity. Everything has a context.
PS2:

Unfortunately the fed does not see it this way.

Unsporting fouls:

10.7.A A player shall not disrepectfully address an official in such a manner to idicate resentment.

10.7.B Use profane or innapropriate language or obsence jestures.

Penalty for all is a T.

I agree that a cuss word said under the breath could go by with a talking to but addressing an official as in the obove case MUST be a T. IMO It is because we choose to "ignore" this much of the time that players and coaches see it as acceptable. If one official calls it correctly and another does not we loose consistancy. In my area (minnesota) the sportsmanship in BB has continually deteriorated since I have began officiating and IMO it is partially becaues we as officials do not strive for consistancy pertaining to what is andis not acceptable on the court. I agree that there is subjectivity here but I think sometimes we as officials give players and coaches so much rope we end up hanging ourselves as well as the game w/ it. My 2 cents.
I am not saying that the rule supports profanity. But we are also their to call the obvious and to make sure that we make calls that are acceptable and can be accepted when we make them. Really hard to do that when it is your word against their word. And I have had this happen in my games a few times over my 15 year career. And you can pull the player to the side and have a short word with them and it does not happen again. And you can also tell the coach and most of them will thank you for informing them. It is not good officiating to eject a player for the first time when you are the only person in that loud gym that hears this. In most states that I have worked this is a reportable offense. If you report it, you have to have some evidence for what was said. And that can and has been disputed. You can call the toe on the lane a 3 seconds call, but if you make many calls like that your other calls are not going to be accepted. A T would not be my first reaction when I am the only person that heard it.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 02:01pm
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Thumbs up I am with Dan and PS2

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

I'm with PS2MAN on this. If a quick "f***!" or "s***!" is directed at no one after a blown play I'm letting it go, assuming the "kids" are old enough to shave. I might say something quietly to the guy later, if I remember.

I would handle this just like Dan would. But I have always asked what is profanity? Because to some folks, saying "God" is profane. I just think it is better to have a quiety word with the player and that should do the trick.

Peace
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 02:03pm
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I agree with MN 3


It's a T - under the breath, maybe a little talking to, but if you heard it, it's a T.

"If you expect more, you get more." And it's in the rules, so let's expect more of kids.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 02:19pm
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It is in the rules.

Quote:
Originally posted by Forksref
I agree with MN 3


It's a T - under the breath, maybe a little talking to, but if you heard it, it's a T.

"If you expect more, you get more." And it's in the rules, so let's expect more of kids.
I love it when people claim things are in the rules, but would never call many things to the letter at all. Coaching box or "Delay warnings" just to name a few. I cannot recall anyone saying, "a coaches foot was out of the lane, then I had to T him."

There are a lot of rules, but there is descretion also. It of course is your option to eject a kid for this, but you also have to deal with the fallout when you do as well. I just would rather worry about the things that affect my game, then the things that do not. A player using profanity to themselves does not feel to me like an ejection. And then if I do that, I have to be on top of all other language that happens the rest of the game. And if I do not hear the language clearly from someone else, now I have to explain to a coach why his kid was ejected and his opponents player was not. There is just a better way.

Peace
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