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Old Thu Nov 23, 2000, 07:24pm
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Unhappy

I was doing a varsity tournament game on Tuesday. My partner and I had a call that all of us hope that never happens to us, but can. I thought it would never happen to me but it did.

I was the trail, my partner was the lead official. We had play were A1 drives to the basket and the defender B1 comes up to stop him. Just as the two players meet, I see the A1 push off and clear out the defender with is arm. Because of that action I am signaling a PC foul. My partner did not see the arm and called a block at practically the same time. Because both of us had signaled already, we come together and decide to go with the a double foul. Team A had the arrow so they get the ball, but Coach B gets really upset (which he should have been) and tells us you cannot have that and that is impossible according to the rules.

Having said all this, I want opinions here. According to the casebook ruling 4-19-7C (except the shot part) we did what we could according to the rule, but is that how you would have handled the situation or would you have done something else. I bring this up also because we did have a discussion about the importance in rules, and no matter what we did, it would not have been a good situation. The coaches did not like the situation, we did not like the situation, but it happen. I really do not feel there is a right and wrong situation but I would like opinions so I can see how you would handle it if it happen to you.
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Old Thu Nov 23, 2000, 07:52pm
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Lightbulb BTW

Something very simular did happen like this at the NCAA Men's Regional final between Iowa St. and Michigan St. I believe.
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Old Thu Nov 23, 2000, 07:53pm
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Obviously it was a bang-bang play. Any call is gonna upset someone. I think you could have kept yourself out of trouble by picking one foul or the other and sticking with it.

I wasn't there of course, but I think you could really sell the offensive push and go the other way with the ball. If your partner was adamant about the block, then you have a problem.

This is a good topic to cover in your pregame.
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Old Thu Nov 23, 2000, 11:28pm
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Now, Here is one of my favorite situations.You might ask yourself,How can someone like a situation like this!The answer is, I am sure of one thing in a situation like this one of these officials has to come out STRONG!! From my own experience when I had a play like this,I wont touch it if it is not in my area.Also, it better be coming at me.And 95% of the time when I am placed in this situation my partner is not refereeing his or her area! Again,the official responsible for that area should have the better angle.The last thing I would have done is call a double foul.Remember officials trusting your partner is crucial in this business.And being honest enough to admit in a second that you have no business making that call! Selling a call like this one when it is your call is the sign of a official who is in the game!Last but not least get it right! get the ball back in play and move on ASAP.
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Old Thu Nov 23, 2000, 11:59pm
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Rutledge and his partner made the right call. You have no choice but to call a double foul. When each official signaled at the same time, each coach thought he was going to get a call. Two fouls have been called. You can't erase either of them. A double foul was and is the correct call.

This did happen in the MSU-ISU regional championship game last year. The U1 and U2 talked about it and tried to come up with one foul. But the referee, Curtis Shaw, put a stop to the nonsense and made the crew go with the double foul. There were plenty of questions after the game about how two different officials saw two different things. But there were no question as to whether a double foul was the proper way to handle it or not.

The larger question is how this happened. Did either official stop the clock with a raised fist prior to giving a preliminary signal? Was the proper eye contact made? I wasn't there but if I had to guess, I would say the answer to both questions is no. Too many HS officials don't stop the clock properly when making a PC or block call. They go directly to the preliminary signal. Incidentally, that's what happened in the MSU-ISU game too.
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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 12:38am
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WOW a BLARGE! was this a 2 or 3 man crew? if it was a
3 man crew this could very easily happen as both of you are on the same side of the court if you and your partner got
together and couldn't decide which happened first then you made the only call possible. However if this was a 2 man crew my only question is who was watching off ball? If the drive strted from the leads side the trail should have been watching off ball and would have never seen the PC. If the drive started from the trails side the lead should have been looking off ball and wouldn't have seen the whole play to call the Block. Even though the play ended up in his primary
he should have given the trail first chance to make this call. But still even if this happens in a 2 man crew if both of you get together and can't figure out which happened first then this is the only option left.
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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 12:47am
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Angry

Where exactly did the foul occur. Was it in the paint? If so, was it in an area where your partner was in position to officiate? In any matter, before making a quick signal as to what foul you have, the best action to take is to signal a foul and make eye contact with your partner before signaling player control/block.
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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 02:52am
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Unhappy 2 Person

Unfortunately it was 2 person. The play started in my area but started going toward his area. I probably would have never signaled a thing if it was not on the boarderline of both areas. The call was on his side of the court, but the play started above the 3 point line, and the contact occured right at the FT line extended. That is the main reason I believe we both had whistles.

I will also say this, we should have been doing 3 person. Because this is a Class AA (Big School class) tournament and the play is awfully fast. It happen so fast that we both got caught. One of the teams is consistently one of the better programs in the state and at one time played in the State Semifinals against a team that eventually went on to basically compete for the National Championship according to the USA Today. Some of the players from their opponents are now on the University of Illinois team (Frank Williams, Sergio McClain, Marcus Griffin). The game is just to fast in many cases for 2. And with me doing more 3 person than 2 person, I many times felt a step behind.
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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 03:25am
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BktBallRef,

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with ya. Just because each coach "thought he was going to get a call", should not be a factor here. The play left the trail official's area and he stayed with it. He made a tough (player control) call that should have stood. The lead's view was blocked and he didn't see the arm. End of story. Once Rutledge communicated that to him, his call (the block) was not a factor.
In my pregame, I make sure my partner and I discuss the double whistle. Somebody has to give. I just can't see calling a double foul in this situation. That really has the appearance that the crew can't decide which call to go with so they go with both.
Good luck to all this season.
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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDave
BktBallRef,
I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with ya. Just because each coach "thought he was going to get a call", should not be a factor here. The play left the trail official's area and he stayed with it. He made a tough (player control) call that should have stood. The lead's view was blocked and he didn't see the arm. End of story. Once Rutledge communicated that to him, his call (the block) was not a factor.
Then I guess we just disagree. Rut said, "My partner did not see the arm and called a block at practically the same time." That implies to me that the calls were simultaneous. Did both players foul? Sure sounds like it. Even if the defender didn't have a guarded position and blocks, the offensive player can't push him off. There's absolutely nothing wrong with calling a double foul in this sitch.

I again refer to the MSU-ISU game. In that game, we had a block-charge call. On that one, obviously somebody missed it. But in this play, both players committed fouls. I think you make it even worse by trying to cancel one.
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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 02:55pm
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Rut,
I would say that you guys handled it perfectly. Once
you've both come out strong with different prelim
signals you have to go with the double foul, there's
just no other there way to do it fairly because as you
know it is covered in the case book.
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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 03:04pm
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Wink

In my humble opinion, one official has to concede to the call of the other one. In situtations like this, I make it a point to walk away from a conference with my partner(s) with one or the other call standing. Coaches, fans and all other observers have learned to accept officials' judgments. They are less inclined to forgive competing egoes.

Based on your description of the situation, my instincts tell me the PC foul would stand. A1's outstretched arm would probably come into contact with some part of B1 prior to B1's body coming into contact with A1. But of course, I wasn't there and neither was my ego.


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Old Fri Nov 24, 2000, 06:08pm
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Exclamation

Although I usually am against the calling of double fouls, this sounds like a situation is which it may be justified. This call is different from the charge/block where one official calls the charge and the other calls the block (in which case, I believe there never should be a double foul call). In the case of the charge/block, I believe you cannot have two interpretations of the same act prevail.

In this case, however, you have two separate acts. The defender committed a block at the same time the offensive player pushed off with his arm. The two fouls are not mutually exclusive. It sound to me like the right call was made.

AAARRRGH! Now I'm agreeing with Rut! What's next - a candygram to Yaws?
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Old Mon Nov 27, 2000, 11:43am
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Mark I absolutely agree. The only call you can have in this situation is the double foul. If one official gives it up to the other, you run the risk of the coach or coaches seeing one official being overruled by his/her partner. Think about what that sets up for the rest of the night every time the official who got overruled makes a call. Don't make a bad situation worse. The rule book sets this as a double foul. However, I agree with all of the other comments made so far that say this is a situation to be talked about in pre-game. Let's face it, double whistles happen. It is the responsibility of both or all three officials to know what to do when they occur.
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Old Mon Nov 27, 2000, 03:57pm
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VERY GOOD discussion. However, one thing keeps running through my head..."What is our main objective?" To preserve our egos or get the call right?

I CAN understand arguments on both the double foul side & the getting together to figure out what happened first side. I believe in trying to get the call right no matter how my partner or I look.

Maybe an unpopular axiom, but just thought I'd throw my two cents in.
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