Hope this never happens again, but

[Hawks Coach]

Juggling
Great summation of the various threads of conversation. With respect to Walter's comment, I have to agree with his assessment that this amounts to making the best of a bad situation. Certainly the rule book and case book allow for double fouls. But in many situations, it is not really a double foul that occurred, but the double foul must be called because two officials see the same single foul in two different ways. Clearly, double foul is the correct call and the book has provided the best way to deal with this situation. However, the situation is not likely to make coaches happy - they will both feel that one foul occurred and the other did not, and one coach is usually right. So you are dealing with a bad situation in accordance with the rules established by the NFHS, but that does not change the fact that the situation started out bad. We coaches would rather not have this occur, and I am sure most refs would prefer not as well. But once you get into this situation, make the right call and move on I think that was what Walter was saying and I agree.

[chels]

From your description, the call was made on players outside
the paint, foul line extended on the opposite side from
the trail(you) coming at the lead.
If you were in your position near your sideline it sounds
like you followed the play too long.
I usually let the play go once the ball has moved past
the top of the key down towards the lead and concentrate on
the players on my side in case of a quick cut to the middle
and a pass.
However,I dont see how there could have been a block call
when you plainly saw the dribbler push off.
Oh well, good luck in the season.

[JRutledge]

was very close to dual area. I would disagree about letting the ball go because the other official might not be watching the ball, he is usually watching off ball until he realizes that the ball is in his area. I really do not know what was going on off ball, because I had players making moves up top. According to the stated mechanics, anything above FT line extended is the trails call. And that is what we had discussed in the pregame. But that is why there is a need to get rid of 2 person almost all together ad go to 3. This more than likely would have never been a problem in a 3 person game. The players are getting too fast and strong to use two officials for a game that had probably several D1 prospects on the floor.

Originally posted by chels
From your description, the call was made on players outside
the paint, foul line extended on the opposite side from
the trail(you) coming at the lead.
If you were in your position near your sideline it sounds
like you followed the play too long.
I usually let the play go once the ball has moved past
the top of the key down towards the lead and concentrate on
the players on my side in case of a quick cut to the middle
and a pass.
However,I dont see how there could have been a block call
when you plainly saw the dribbler push off.
Oh well, good luck in the season.

[walter]

My point was simply that you had two officials give signals on the floor; one for PC one for block. This is the bad situation I was referring to. At that point, I think you've got a tough road if you try to sell one over the other. One coach is going to think that one official overruled the other no matter how you explain it. The rule book gives you an out. Will it make everyone happy, probably not, but that's the rule. One thing I always cover in my pre-game is the double whistle especially on block charge situations. If we have one, let's make sure we have a fist, eye contact and go with whoever's primary area it is whether two or three person crews. If we need to get together and talk let's do it (i.e where did the play originate, etc.). Otherwise, non-primary gives up to primary and play on. In this situation, because of the actions of the officials, not saying who was right or wrong, double foul was the right call.

[JRutledge]

Now let me ask you this. What if you cover it in the pregame and still you have a double whistle situation and neither of you notice the other blew their whistle? That is what happen, I did not hear his whistle, and he I think did not hear or see me with my arm up. We discuss this situation in pregame and I always do, but what happens if both of you just have a brain fart?

[walter]

We've all been there!!! I still think that since both of you signaled different calls, you're really stuck. Reasonable people can take the same set of facts and reach different yet reasonable conclusions. One had a block and one had a PC. Double foul and get the game back moving as soon as possible.

[JRutledge]

that is exactly what we did.

Originally posted by walter
We've all been there!!! I still think that since both of you signaled different calls, you're really stuck. Reasonable people can take the same set of facts and reach different yet reasonable conclusions. One had a block and one had a PC. Double foul and get the game back moving as soon as possible.

[jimcrket]

The main factor of this is what caused the contact. In this scenario, Rutledge has given us the kewy - the arm of A1 keeping the defender away from the play. Therefore, logic provides that it is an offensive foul and B should get the ball. In the NCAA tournament game referred to, the play was with two bodies hitting each other simulatneoulsy and without an arm or any other body part to delineate the point of contact. Here, it is clearly the arm which causes the contact.

The good news is that Rutledge did not let that type of foul go unpunished. Secondly, whomever is the R in this situation must step up and decide the outcome. Then, after the game, the two officials should review the tape and talk through the event.

Thanks Rut, for the interesting scenario.