Possession Arrow ?

[Rick Vietti]

This came up in our annual clinic yesterday and I found it a very interesting play to throw out for comment.

Start of Game - Jump ball - Team A taps ball towards their basket. Ball hits the floor and tips off of A2s hand who is standing at the free throw line and goes in the basket.

Score 2 points for Team A.
Team B takes the ball out.

Who gets the first possession arrow?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Rick Vietti
This came up in our annual clinic yesterday and I found it a very interesting play to throw out for comment.

Start of Game - Jump ball - Team A taps ball towards their basket. Ball hits the floor and tips off of A2s hand who is standing at the free throw line and goes in the basket.

Score 2 points for Team A.
Team B takes the ball out.

Who gets the first possession arrow?

A.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Rick Vietti
This came up in our annual clinic yesterday and I found it a very interesting play to throw out for comment.

Start of Game - Jump ball - Team A taps ball towards their basket. Ball hits the floor and tips off of A2s hand who is standing at the free throw line and goes in the basket.

Score 2 points for Team A.
Team B takes the ball out.

Who gets the first possession arrow?

I love this question, I am jealous that I have never thought of this play. I only have my NFHS Rules Book in front of me but the NCAA rules are the same. Here goes.

It is my opinion that there is no rule that directly applies to this situation. So I will give the only two possible rulings that I would consider under the rules.

Ruling 1: NFHS R4-S3-A3a: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after a violation during or following the jump before a player secures control. This is the least defensible ruling. Under this ruling the possession arrow would be set toward Team A's basket after the ball was placed at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in by Team B after the field goal by A2.

Ruling 2: As soon as the ball becomes dead after Team A's field goal, bring the ball back to the center circle for a jump ball between the two original jumpers.

To be honest, I do not know which Ruling I would go with. I am just going to keep on knocking on wood before every game.

[Hawks Coach]

A made basket is not a violation, so 4-3-3a does not apply, nor should it. The rule was never intended to address this situation.

We have a made basket, so it is not one of the situations specified for alternating possession/jump ball. So the second choice that Mark has selected does not go by the book - doesn't make it wrong, but it is not a logical outcome.

Since the book addresses none of these situations, a goal by A (on either a defelction by B or A) should result in B with ball on baseline off the made shot AND the possession arow. Logic dictates that the made basket is a surrogate for team control - it is the most right solution when the rules offer no correct answer.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
A made basket is not a violation, so 4-3-3a does not apply, nor should it. The rule was never intended to address this situation.

We have a made basket, so it is not one of the situations specified for alternating possession/jump ball. So the second choice that Mark has selected does not go by the book - doesn't make it wrong, but it is not a logical outcome.

Since the book addresses none of these situations, a goal by A (on either a defelction by B or A) should result in B with ball on baseline off the made shot AND the possession arow. Logic dictates that the made basket is a surrogate for team control - it is the most right solution when the rules offer no correct answer.

Coach, I agree with you that my Ruling 1 does not fit this situation and we are both correct in that the Rules do not cover this exact situation, then that leaves only one solution and that is my Ruling 2. We have a situation where the ball has been put into play and the possession arrow has yet to be set. If we cannot apply the rule that I quoted in Ruling 1 to Team B's throw-in after Team A's field goal, and I am inclined to agree with you, then the only acceptable solutiona is my Ruling 2. As soon as the ball becomes dead after Team A's field goal the covering official should sound his whistle to stop the clock and a jump ball at center court between any two players should put the ball back into play.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I love this question, I am jealous that I have never thought of this play. I only have my NFHS Rules Book in front of me but the NCAA rules are the same. Here goes.

It is my opinion that there is no rule that directly applies to this situation. So I will give the only two possible rulings that I would consider under the rules.

Ruling 1: NFHS R4-S3-A3a: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after a violation during or following the jump before a player secures control. This is the least defensible ruling. Under this ruling the possession arrow would be set toward Team A's basket after the ball was placed at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in by Team B after the field goal by A2.

Ruling 2: As soon as the ball becomes dead after Team A's field goal, bring the ball back to the center circle for a jump ball between the two original jumpers.

To be honest, I do not know which Ruling I would go with. I am just going to keep on knocking on wood before every game.

Since the ball went in legally give B the ball to run the end line per 7-5-7. Seems pretty simple who should get the arrow once B gets the ball for the first throw-in opportunity.

[ChuckElias]

No offense, but you guys are making this way too hard. This is directly covered by FED 4-3-1. "Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when a player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball."

When B secures control of the ball after A's basket, you set the arrow toward Team A. The fact that control was secured as a result of the throw-in (as opposed to immediately after the jump ball) doesn't change the fact that Team B has the first possession of the game.

Don't make it harder than it has to be. Juulie nailed it.

[Rick Vietti]

What I am wondering is the question of team control? I think that defines who should get the possession arrow.

The ball is at the disposal of both teams at the jump so team control is not established. A2 never had control of the ball as it caromed off of his hand. Is that team control?

After the dead ball, Team B does have team control.

I voted for possesion arrow to Team A.

BTW, this play happened to this fellow and he awarded it to team A.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach


Logic dictates that the made basket is a surrogate for team control - it is the most right solution when the rules offer no correct answer.

ahhhh my....so I was wrong...it's *not* so simple figuring out who gets the arrow. A gets the arrow because while they did score a basket they did so without controlling the ball.

A gets 2 pts & the arrow on B's throw-in. I agree entirely there is absolutely no reason to rejump.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
No offense, but you guys are making this way too hard. This is directly covered by FED 4-3-1. "Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when a player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball."

When B secures control of the ball after A's basket, you set the arrow toward Team A. The fact that control was secured as a result of the throw-in (as opposed to immediately after the jump ball) doesn't change the fact that Team B has the first possession of the game.

Don't make it harder than it has to be. Juulie nailed it.

Chuck, your logic is heading in the correct direction, but do not forget that possession of the ball for a throw-in is not the same securing control of the ball, but rather than use my Ruling 2, I think that you are heading in the correct direction. Let Team B continue with its throw-in as a result of Team A's field goal and the arrow is then set toward the basket of the opponent of the team that secures player control after the throw-in ends, which would be your application of R4-S3-A1.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
ahhhh my....so I was wrong...it's *not* so simple figuring out who gets the arrow. A gets the arrow because while they did score a basket they did so without controlling the ball.

Isn't that essentially what you said in your previous post? I don't see where you were wrong.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Chuck, your logic is heading in the correct direction, but do not forget that possession of the ball for a throw-in is not the same securing control of the ball,

Interesting. I see the point, Mark. I guess I sort of combined Art 1 and Art 3 in my thinking. But Art 3 places limits on throw-ins that result in setting the arrow; and after a made or awarded basket isn't within those limits. Very curious. Apparently, we need an Article 4 that will say that the arrow is initially set when ". . .The ball is available to the thrower after a made or awarded basket which is scored before either team has established team control."

However, absent that new article, I think Juulie's solution is the most common-sense way to handle it.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 10th, 2003 at 12:55 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Isn't that essentially what you said in your previous post? I don't see where you were wrong.

Coach made me realize I was wrong because I felt it obvious that A gets the arrow "once B gets the ball for the first throw-in opportunity."

B gets the ball, A gets 2 points and the arrow. Maybe add an article 4 as you suggest, I think it would be smarter for the fed to add the word "momentum" to their travel rule/case play.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Maybe add an article 4 as you suggest, I think it would be smarter for the fed to add the word "momentum" to their travel rule/case play.

Just caaaaan't let it go, can you?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
No offense, but you guys are making this way too hard. This is directly covered by FED 4-3-1. "Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when a player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball."

When B secures control of the ball after A's basket, you set the arrow toward Team A. The fact that control was secured as a result of the throw-in (as opposed to immediately after the jump ball) doesn't change the fact that Team B has the first possession of the game.

Don't make it harder than it has to be. Juulie nailed it.

Exactly! When B gets player control on the throw-in,then set the arrow to A. If A steals the throw-in, give the arrow to B as soon as team A has player control. That follows 4-3-1 AND 4-12.