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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 06, 2024, 10:28am
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Team Control Player Control Difference ...

Yesterday a rookie official asked me a very high level question and I “stumbled” through an answer.

Here's the email clarification that I sent him today.

How did I do?

Question: What is the practical difference between a team control foul and a player control foul.

A team control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control (holding, dribbling, passing).

A player control foul is a common foul committed by a player while he/she is in control of the ball (holding, dribbling) OR by an airborne shooter.

Remember that an airborne shooter, after the ball has been released on a shot (try) is not a team member in control (holding or dribbling), but can still be charged with a player control foul.

No team control during a try (shot).

Thus all player control fouls are not necessarily also team control fouls.

Because the difference is more academic than practical, we now use the same signal (back of the head) for both types of fouls, whereas we used two different signals (back of head and fist punch) a few years ago before the team control signal was changed.

Even before the recent signal change, many officials had been incorrectly using a fist punch for player control fouls, favoring the incorrect fist punch over the correct back of the head, thinking that the fist punch was a “stronger signal”.

Thus, you will often see older veterans incorrectly using the old team control fist punch for many “offensive type” fouls, old dog, new tricks.

Also keep in mind that a team control foul is also a common foul committed by a member of the throwin team from the start of the throwin until player control is obtained inbounds.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 06, 2024 at 02:37pm.
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Old Wed Feb 07, 2024, 06:02am
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Question: What is the practical difference between a team control foul and a player control foul?

Answer: Nothing


Fixed it for ya!
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2024, 06:05am
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For a veteran such as yourself, the difference used to be that a goal could be scored on a player control foul if the try had been released prior to contact and the foul was therefore by an airborne shooter, while a team control foul always prevented any score. Of course that rule changed several years ago. College even changed it.

No more counting a goal and then going to the opposite end for bonus FTs.

Best not to confuse the rookies with this though.
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Old Wed Feb 07, 2024, 11:09am
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Befuddled Coaches ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
... player control foul if the try had been released prior to contact ... counting a goal and then going to the opposite end for bonus FTs.
Leaving both coaches befuddled. Do they thank us, yell at us, or just sit down and be quiet (no standing in a coaching box back then)?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 10, 2024 at 10:45am.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2024, 04:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
For a veteran such as yourself, the difference used to be that a goal could be scored on a player control foul if the try had been released prior to contact and the foul was therefore by an airborne shooter, while a team control foul always prevented any score. Of course that rule changed several years ago. College even changed it.

No more counting a goal and then going to the opposite end for bonus FTs.

Best not to confuse the rookies with this though.
That must have been before my time. When I started in 2015, there were still two different signals, but no points could be scored or free throws attempted on either a team or player control foul. At least NCAAW and NBA rules are consistent and call both types of fouls offensive fouls, because it is the offense that commits them.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2024, 09:59am
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Ancient Times ...

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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
That must have been before my time.
For NFHS, it was ancient times, when we used whistles with peas, had several jump balls in every game in three different jump ball circles, gave dribblers a new five second count if they passed the 28 foot hash mark, and rarely allowed coaches to stand up.

"Count the basket" player control foul on one end, then walk down to the other end to shoot bonus free throws.

The good ole days?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2024, 03:46pm
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I'm vaguely remembering this now. Was it in the rule to shoot FTs for any PC (or TC) foul if the bonus was in effect? Or just ones that occurred after the try had been released?
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2024, 07:38pm
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Try Released ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Or just ones that occurred after the try had been released?
This.
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Old Sat Feb 10, 2024, 10:44am
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Practical ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Question: What is the practical difference between a team control foul and a player control foul? Answer: Nothing.
Agree. Practical was poor word choice.

Bottom line: All player control fouls are not necessarily also team control fouls.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Sat Feb 10, 2024, 12:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. Practical was poor word choice.

Bottom line: All player control fouls are not necessarily also team control fouls.
and vice versa.

Used to be a difference, but now in both the throw-in and FT sections the phrases "PC foul" and TC foul" are used one right after the other to show that they have the same penalty.
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Old Sat Feb 10, 2024, 01:28pm
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But There Are Five Team Fouls ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
... they have the same penalty.
No free throws.
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Old Sat Feb 10, 2024, 01:34pm
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Vis-ΰ-vis ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
... and vice versa.
All team control fouls are not necessarily also player control fouls.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed ... by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Sat Feb 10, 2024, 06:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
All team control fouls are not necessarily also player control fouls.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed ... by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.
... and, of course, the most common type of team control foul we call, illegal screens.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2024, 11:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
the difference used to be that a goal could be scored on a player control foul if the try had been released prior to contact and the foul was therefore by an airborne shooter,
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
"Count the basket" player control foul on one end, then walk down to the other end to shoot bonus free throws.
I'm pretty sure that when I started working HS ball, we were using the current player control foul rule. So no FT, even the try had been released by the shooter. But in NCAA, we still used the old rule. So having said that. . .

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole reason that you could shoot the FTs in this situation is that it was NOT a player control foul. Once the shooter released the ball, there was no player control. So it was a charge in a loose-ball situation. But not a player control foul.
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Old Sun Feb 11, 2024, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I'm pretty sure that when I started working HS ball, we were using the current player control foul rule. So no FT, even the try had been released by the shooter. But in NCAA, we still used the old rule. So having said that. . .

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole reason that you could shoot the FTs in this situation is that it was NOT a player control foul. Once the shooter released the ball, there was no player control. So it was a charge in a loose-ball situation. But not a player control foul.
I do not recall that rule. I do recall that if A2 set an illegal screen, B could shoot FTs if B was in the bonus.

They could have combined the categories when they went to the "no FTs for a TC foul" rule a dozen or so years ago.
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