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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 11:43am
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NCAA Team Control - Player Control Signals ...

Got this (below) in an email from IAABO International today:

Per the NCAA Mens National Coordinator, effective for the 2020-21 season, the team control foul signal will be the same as the player control foul signal.

From this wording, I'm not sure which signal "survived the cut"?

Have we already discussed this on the Forum?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 10, 2020 at 12:34pm.
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Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 11:49am
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They are requiring for PC fouls to have the hand behind the head for the signal. That is all. Do not complicate it. I am sure it will be clarified in the CCA Manual. But at this time that is all that happened. No punch for those plays because there was some confusion with counting the basket.

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Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 11:59am
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Curiosity Killed The Cat ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Do not complicate it.
Not an issue for me, I've worked exactly one college game (community college) in forty years.
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Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 12:02pm
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Already discussed

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ic-change.html
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Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Not an issue for me, I've worked exactly one college game (community college) in forty years.
Yeah, but you came here making it kind of complicated. The NCAA unlike the NF puts out videos and addresses things on a weekly basis during the season and puts out directives before the season. Even if it is not "clear" by this statement, there will be plenty of literature to back up what is wanted.

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Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 12:32pm
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Lazy Is As Lazy Does ...

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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Thanks SC Official (I was actually too lazy to search for it).

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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 10, 2020 at 01:34pm.
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Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Got this (below) in an email from IAABO International today:

Per the NCAA Mens National Coordinator, effective for the 2020-21 season, the team control foul signal will be the same as the player control foul signal.

From this wording, I'm not sure which signal "survived the cut"?

Have we already discussed this on the Forum?
There has been no announcement from NCAA Men's that I can find that states the TC signal will now be the same as the PC signal. Only notification I have seen is eliminating the punch at the spot for PC fouls. That was posted April 6th.
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Last edited by Raymond; Mon Aug 10, 2020 at 07:03pm.
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Old Mon Aug 10, 2020, 06:53pm
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Junp The Gun ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There has been no announcement from NCAA Men's that I can find that states the TC signal will now be the same as the PC signal. Only notification I have seen is eliminating the punch at the spot for PC fouls. That was post April 6th.
IAABO is known to sometimes "jump the gun" or to "stick their nose in places where they shouldn't be sticking their nose" (see NFHS rule change to go from the hit to the release on free throws and the limitations of the defensive player boxing out the free thrower a few years ago).
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Old Tue Aug 11, 2020, 09:38am
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Our state's new mechanics manual tried to synthesize the process whereby the punch is the directional signal for both TC and PC fouls. The "hand behind the head" signal thus precedes the punch/directional for PC fouls. Seemed to work ok the first year doing it that way. Giving the punch as a directional kept it from looking like the "basket good" signal, which was the source of confusion in some circles in some places.

(edited . . .)
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Last edited by Freddy; Tue Aug 11, 2020 at 12:37pm.
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Old Tue Aug 11, 2020, 12:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Our state's new mechanics manual tried to synthesize the process whereby the punch is the directional signal for both TC and PC fouls. The "hand behind the head" signal thus precedes the punch/directional for TC fouls. Seemed to work ok the first year doing it that way. Giving the punch as a directional kept it from looking like the "basket good" signal, which was the source of confusion in some circles in some places.
Hand behind the head TC fouls, but not PC?

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Old Tue Aug 11, 2020, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Hand behind the head TC fouls, but not PC?

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Nice catch. I corrected my post. Got my P's and T's confused. Thanx, Ray!

Hand behind head for PC fouls, not TC's.
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Old Tue Aug 11, 2020, 01:08pm
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Didn't You Ever Learn To ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Got my P's and T's confused.
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Old Tue Aug 11, 2020, 04:32pm
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Bad Boys!

The NFHS adopted the "extended arm with fist" signal for a TCF which was not PCF the same year that Hank Zaborniak, Jr. (of the OhioHSAA) became the Chairman of the NFHS Rules Committee, which if my memory serves me correctly was the 2012-13 School Year.

The PCF signal of the "hand on the back of the head" informed the Scorer that the Fouler would be charged but no FTs would be awarded . The "extended arm with fist" signal was adopted to inform the Scorer that the Fouler would be charged but no FTs would be awarded despite the PF not being a PCF.

Many of you have heard me use the old commercial: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen!" many time before. With that in mind, one of the things that Hank did for the start of the 2012-13 School Year was to inform all Basketball Officials would use the "hand on the back of the head" signal for all TCFs because Scorers would not understand the change in the signalling mechanic, !

I let Hank know that making that change did not set a good example to the other States, and that Mark, Jr., and I could not in good conscious not use the TCF signal as adopted by the NFHS. Needless to say, I am confident that Mark, Jr., and I were the only two OhioHSAA Basketball Officials that have never followed Hank's directive. That said, Mark, Jr. and I were:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXMHaYoc9J8

That said, since the NFHS has changed its Signal Chart, then Mark, Jr., will follow that Signal Chart if sports are played this year.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Tue Aug 11, 2020, 10:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
The NFHS adopted the "extended arm with fist" signal for a TCF which was not PCF the same year that Hank Zaborniak, Jr. (of the OhioHSAA) became the Chairman of the NFHS Rules Committee, which if my memory serves me correctly was the 2012-13 School Year.

The PCF signal of the "hand on the back of the head" informed the Scorer that the Fouler would be charged but no FTs would be awarded . The "extended arm with fist" signal was adopted to inform the Scorer that the Fouler would be charged but no FTs would be awarded despite the PF not being a PCF.

Many of you have heard me use the old commercial: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen!" many time before. With that in mind, one of the things that Hank did for the start of the 2012-13 School Year was to inform all Basketball Officials would use the "hand on the back of the head" signal for all TCFs because Scorers would not understand the change in the signalling mechanic, !

I let Hank know that making that change did not set a good example to the other States, and that Mark, Jr., and I could not in good conscious not use the TCF signal as adopted by the NFHS. Needless to say, I am confident that Mark, Jr., and I were the only two OhioHSAA Basketball Officials that have never followed Hank's directive. That said, Mark, Jr. and I were:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXMHaYoc9J8

That said, since the NFHS has changed its Signal Chart, then Mark, Jr., will follow that Signal Chart if sports are played this year.

MTD, Sr.
Mark, I'm looking at a 2006-07 manual that shows the extended arm/fist for a TCF. Anyway, if HZ was the Chairman of the NFHS Rules Committee, and that committee adopted the TCF signal, why would Hank then turn around and tell all officials to use the PCF signal instead? That doesn't make any sense. I believe it was our current director of basketball officials who made that decision at an OHSAA rules interpreters meeting that I attended. FWIW, I thought it was a logical decision. As it now turns out, perhaps that decision had merit. Additionally, do you really think other states actually cared about what kind of example Ohio was setting by going against the NFHS mechanic for TCF's? Many states make adjustments to the NFHS rules and mechanics. Finally, I'm somewhat surprised that your good "conscience" would advise you not to go along with the directive and be consistent with the other 99.999% of Ohio basketball officials. THAT, is not setting a good example.

Last edited by billyu2; Tue Aug 11, 2020 at 11:07pm.
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Old Wed Aug 12, 2020, 12:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Mark, I'm looking at a 2006-07 manual that shows the extended arm/fist for a TCF. Anyway, if HZ was the Chairman of the NFHS Rules Committee, and that committee adopted the TCF signal, why would Hank then turn around and tell all officials to use the PCF signal instead? That doesn't make any sense. I believe it was our current director of basketball officials who made that decision at an OHSAA rules interpreters meeting that I attended. FWIW, I thought it was a logical decision. As it now turns out, perhaps that decision had merit. Additionally, do you really think other states actually cared about what kind of example Ohio was setting by going against the NFHS mechanic for TCF's? Many states make adjustments to the NFHS rules and mechanics. Finally, I'm somewhat surprised that your good "conscience" would advise you not to go along with the directive and be consistent with the other 99.999% of Ohio basketball officials. THAT, is not setting a good example.

BillyU2:

1) You are correct with regard to the 2005-07 NFHS Officials manual.

2) I climbed up into "The Attic" and checked my files and Hank became the NFHS Rules Committee Chairman in 2010-11 and not 2012-13; I do not know why I thought it was 2012-13 but I am getting senile in my old age, .

3a) Everything is correct as I stated except that it took place two years earlier and Denny Morris (OhioHSAA Director of Basketball Officials) did not make the change, and do not get me started on Denny because he has two strikes against him with me credibility wise.

3b) I have known Hank since the late 1980s.

3c) I told Hank that the NFHS Officials Manual has had two different signals for over five years and I told him that there were two reasons that I did not think it was a good decision to have the OhioHSAA use an unapproved signal: He was the Chairman of the NFHS Rules Committee; and ii) His reasoning for making the change (the Scorer not understanding the two different signals, especially since the signal had been in use for five years).

3d) I am positive that I was one of only two basketball officials (not counting Junior) in Ohio that could get away with not conforming with his mandated signal change.

3e) I also told Hank that if he wanted to use the same signal for all TCFs and he wanted it to be the "hand behind the head" signal, I had no problem with that but the reason should not be the "Scorer not understanding the signal reason but that it should be one signal for both types TCFs.

You can always email me at my OhioHSAA Officials Directory email address.

MTD, Sr.
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Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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