Blarge

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

------------------------------
I know my 2nd play is Case Book 4.19.8C

My real question is Play 1
So are you indicating that Continuous Motion (Rule 4-11-1 & 2 and Fundamental #17) can be implemented into the 1st Double Foul play? How can you have Continuous Motion on an Offensive Foul?

We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.

The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.



The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...

I don't remember any conversations here about that nor it ever being in dispute.

4-11-3 is the closest thing that addresses it. If a teammate of A1 was part of the double foul, continuous motion would not apply. Nowhere have I read there's an exception if A1 themself is part of the double foul.



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[BillyMac]

I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?

That is what Bob is asserting.

I never heard or read that stance before.

The only exception for a try to count when a shooter has committed a foul is when the try is released and there is a double foul. The exception doesn't say "once the shooter has begun their continuous motion".

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?

4-11-2 and -3 (continuous motion) conflict; both are true in a double foul.

6-7-7 (dead ball) comes into play -- does exception C apply?

That's the issue.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's the issue.

Thanks.

Can it be solved?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks.



Can it be solved?

To me it's quite simple and there is nothing to be solved.

If an offensive player commits a foul while there is team control, the ball is immediately dead, whether it's part of a single foul or a double foul. It was actually part of NCAA Men's preseason clinic videos a couple years in conjunction with the expansion of replay review, and their rules are the same as high school in regards to this situation.

It's clean and simple.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If an offensive player commits a foul while there is team control, the ball is immediately dead ....

Which allows a successful goal be scored if the try is released (no team control) before the illegal contact by an offensive player and the try is a successful after the illegal contact by an offensive player, while denying that such a successful goal be scored if the try is released after the illegal contact (no team control) by an offensive player?

6-7-4: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A player-control or team-control foul occurs. Exception: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap for field goal ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: c. Article 7 (a foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs) occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for field goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight … continuous motion.

Sounds simple and rational.

But this is a double foul, which supposedly, by tradition (I've heard this "blarge" explanation for over forty years), is neither a team/player control foul, nor a foul by an opponent of the shooter.

However, on the third hand we have this:

6.7.4 SITUATION: Airborne A1 is fouled by B1 during a field-goal try or tap. After the ball is in flight, A1 illegally contacts B2 in returning to the floor. The ball goes through the basket. RULING: The foul by B1 did not cause the ball to become dead since A1 had started the trying or tapping motion. However, airborne shooter A1’s foul is a player-control foul which does cause the ball to become dead immediately. No goal can be scored even if the ball had already gone through the basket before the foul. Since the goal is unsuccessful, A1 is awarded two free throws for the foul by B1. No players are allowed in the lane spaces as Team B will be awarded the ball following the last free throw. If the last throw is successful, the throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. If the last throw is unsuccessful, the throw-in is from a designated spot nearest the foul. The situation is a false double foul. (4-11; 4-19-6)

But this (above), on the fourth hand, is not a double foul, it's a false double foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

4-11-2 and -3 (continuous motion) conflict;

4-11-2: If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

4-11-3: Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Is a "teammate" be the same as the "player" (shooter) himself?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-11-2: If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

4-11-3: Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Is a "teammate" be the same as the "player" (shooter) himself?

Three days ago from Raymond:

"4-11-3 is the closest thing that addresses it. If a teammate of A1 was part of the double foul, continuous motion would not apply. Nowhere have I read there's an exception if A1 themself is part of the double foul."

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Nowhere have I read there's an exception if A1 themself is part of the double foul.

Nor does it say that a player is also a teammate of himself, even though he probably is.

As Raymond said "4-11-3 is the closest thing that addresses it."

Closest doesn't mean the same as "touching", it's just real close.

I'm not going to die on any hill regarding this "before the release" situation.

This may be one of those issues that only the NFHS can fully address, not the rule "experts" on the Forum.

I'm not being sarcastic here, I truly do view many Forum posters as rule experts.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.

The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...

6-7-7 Makes the ball dead because the exception only applies for an opponent fouling. In the case of a double foul, you have an offensive foul too, this the dead ball is excepted for the defensive part of the foul but it is dead because a foul other than PC/TC has occurred and it wasn't by the defense. 6-7-7 list a bunch of conditions that all make the ball dead. If any one of them occur and are not excepted, the ball is dead.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The dreaded "blarge" has been in the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules since the days of the NBC despite the fact that when it comes to B1 being "guilty" of a Block and A1 being "guilty" of a Charge, by Rule a "blarge" cannot occur. Either B1 has Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP or B1 has NOT Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP.

The NCAA Women's Rules has done it correctly every since the NCAA Women's Rules Committee supplanted the AIAW. The Official whose has the Ball at the start of the drive takes the Call.

I know that I am going to catch "heck" from some people for what I am about to say but from the very start of my officiating career I pre-gamed "blarges" out of my boys'/girls' JrHS/HS, and men's jr. college/college JV games. Because as I have stated for almost 60 years the Rules state that "blarges" CANNOT happen.

Enjoy the weekend everyone!

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

TThe Official whose has the Ball at the start of the drive takes the Call.

That's not always the NCAAW mechanic

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not always the NCAAW mechanic

Bob:

I was writing quickly. I knew that it was not as simple as that but back in the middle and late 1980s the procedure was introduced in CCA's Women's Two- and Three-Person Officials Manual. I am sure that the procedure has been refined since I retired from college officiating in 2008. But the fact still remains: By Rule, it is has never been possible to have a "blarge". The NCAA Women's Committee understood this from the start while the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees still cling to a 65 year-plus impossibility.

MTD, Sr.