Blarge

[Zoochy]

A1 drives to the Basket. A1 makes contact with B1. A1 then releases the ball and the ball goes in the basket.
Double whistle. Referee 1 signals Player Control. Referee 2 signals Block

Would a Blarge ruling be different if A1 goes airborne, releases the Try and crashes into B1 before A1 returns to the floor?
Again, Double whistle. Referee 1 signals Player Control. Referee 2 signals Block

[Raymond]

Yes, it makes a difference whether or not to try was released prior to the illegal contact called against A1.

If A1 still has possession, point of interruption would be team A's possession.

If the try had been released, and is successful, point of interruption is team B's throw in.

If the try has been released and the shot is missed, AP arrow.

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

A1 drives to the Basket. A1 makes contact with B1. A1 then releases the ball and the ball goes in the basket.
Double whistle. Referee 1 signals Player Control. Referee 2 signals Block

Would a Blarge ruling be different if A1 goes airborne, releases the Try and crashes into B1 before A1 returns to the floor?
Again, Double whistle. Referee 1 signals Player Control. Referee 2 signals Block

A PC foul is a Common Foul, and a Common Foul cannot be part of a Double Foul.

So, the ball does not become dead on A1'S foul. If the try has been released, count the goal. No FTs and B gets the ball for a throw-in. If the try is unsuccessful, use the arrow.

I think the ruling is the same if A1 has started the try but has not released the ball.

If A1 has not started the try, give the ball back to A.

See 4.19.8C

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Yes, it makes a difference whether or not to try was released prior to the illegal contact called against A1.

Forgetting about the double foul aspect here, back in ancient times, if the try was released prior to the player control illegal contact, the basket counted (if good) and (if in the bonus) we walked down to the other end of the gym to shoot one an one (no two shot "double bonus" back then).

Both coaches were often perplexed and didn't know whether, or not, to be angry at us.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

See 4.19.8C

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official rules a blocking foul on B1 and the other official rules a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A PC foul is a Common Foul, and a Common Foul cannot be part of a Double Foul.

So, the ball does not become dead on A1'S foul. If the try has been released, count the goal. No FTs and B gets the ball for a throw-in. If the try is unsuccessful, use the arrow.

I think the ruling is the same if A1 has started the try but has not released the ball.

If A1 has not started the try, give the ball back to A.

See 4.19.8C

------------------------------
I know my 2nd play is Case Book 4.19.8C

My real question is Play 1
So are you indicating that Continuous Motion (Rule 4-11-1 & 2 and Fundamental #17) can be implemented into the 1st Double Foul play? How can you have Continuous Motion on an Offensive Foul?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

------------------------------

I know my 2nd play is Case Book 4.19.8C



My real question is Play 1

So are you indicating that Continuous Motion (Rule 4-11-1 & 2 and Fundamental #17) can be implemented into the 1st Double Foul play? How can you have Continuous Motion on an Offensive Foul?

Whether or not A1 has released the try most definitely plays into the ruling. There is no continuous motion if the contact occurs while the ball is still in his control.

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

------------------------------
I know my 2nd play is Case Book 4.19.8C

My real question is Play 1
So are you indicating that Continuous Motion (Rule 4-11-1 & 2 and Fundamental #17) can be implemented into the 1st Double Foul play? How can you have Continuous Motion on an Offensive Foul?

We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.

The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.



The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...

I don't remember any conversations here about that nor it ever being in dispute.

4-11-3 is the closest thing that addresses it. If a teammate of A1 was part of the double foul, continuous motion would not apply. Nowhere have I read there's an exception if A1 themself is part of the double foul.



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[BillyMac]

I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?

That is what Bob is asserting.

I never heard or read that stance before.

The only exception for a try to count when a shooter has committed a foul is when the try is released and there is a double foul. The exception doesn't say "once the shooter has begun their continuous motion".

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?

4-11-2 and -3 (continuous motion) conflict; both are true in a double foul.

6-7-7 (dead ball) comes into play -- does exception C apply?

That's the issue.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's the issue.

Thanks.

Can it be solved?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.

The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...

6-7-7 Makes the ball dead because the exception only applies for an opponent fouling. In the case of a double foul, you have an offensive foul too, this the dead ball is excepted for the defensive part of the foul but it is dead because a foul other than PC/TC has occurred and it wasn't by the defense. 6-7-7 list a bunch of conditions that all make the ball dead. If any one of them occur and are not excepted, the ball is dead.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The dreaded "blarge" has been in the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules since the days of the NBC despite the fact that when it comes to B1 being "guilty" of a Block and A1 being "guilty" of a Charge, by Rule a "blarge" cannot occur. Either B1 has Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP or B1 has NOT Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP.

The NCAA Women's Rules has done it correctly every since the NCAA Women's Rules Committee supplanted the AIAW. The Official whose has the Ball at the start of the drive takes the Call.

I know that I am going to catch "heck" from some people for what I am about to say but from the very start of my officiating career I pre-gamed "blarges" out of my boys'/girls' JrHS/HS, and men's jr. college/college JV games. Because as I have stated for almost 60 years the Rules state that "blarges" CANNOT happen.

Enjoy the weekend everyone!

MTD, Sr.