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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 09:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
A1 drives to the Basket. A1 makes contact with B1. A1 then releases the ball and the ball goes in the basket.
Double whistle. Referee 1 signals Player Control. Referee 2 signals Block

Would a Blarge ruling be different if A1 goes airborne, releases the Try and crashes into B1 before A1 returns to the floor?
Again, Double whistle. Referee 1 signals Player Control. Referee 2 signals Block
A PC foul is a Common Foul, and a Common Foul cannot be part of a Double Foul.

So, the ball does not become dead on A1'S foul. If the try has been released, count the goal. No FTs and B gets the ball for a throw-in. If the try is unsuccessful, use the arrow.

I think the ruling is the same if A1 has started the try but has not released the ball.

If A1 has not started the try, give the ball back to A.

See 4.19.8C
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 11:35am
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Blarge Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
See 4.19.8C
4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official rules a blocking foul on B1 and the other official rules a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
A PC foul is a Common Foul, and a Common Foul cannot be part of a Double Foul.

So, the ball does not become dead on A1'S foul. If the try has been released, count the goal. No FTs and B gets the ball for a throw-in. If the try is unsuccessful, use the arrow.

I think the ruling is the same if A1 has started the try but has not released the ball.

If A1 has not started the try, give the ball back to A.

See 4.19.8C
------------------------------
I know my 2nd play is Case Book 4.19.8C

My real question is Play 1
So are you indicating that Continuous Motion (Rule 4-11-1 & 2 and Fundamental #17) can be implemented into the 1st Double Foul play? How can you have Continuous Motion on an Offensive Foul?
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
------------------------------

I know my 2nd play is Case Book 4.19.8C



My real question is Play 1

So are you indicating that Continuous Motion (Rule 4-11-1 & 2 and Fundamental #17) can be implemented into the 1st Double Foul play? How can you have Continuous Motion on an Offensive Foul?
Whether or not A1 has released the try most definitely plays into the ruling. There is no continuous motion if the contact occurs while the ball is still in his control.

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Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 01:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
------------------------------
I know my 2nd play is Case Book 4.19.8C

My real question is Play 1
So are you indicating that Continuous Motion (Rule 4-11-1 & 2 and Fundamental #17) can be implemented into the 1st Double Foul play? How can you have Continuous Motion on an Offensive Foul?
We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.

The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 02:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.



The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...
I don't remember any conversations here about that nor it ever being in dispute.

4-11-3 is the closest thing that addresses it. If a teammate of A1 was part of the double foul, continuous motion would not apply. Nowhere have I read there's an exception if A1 themself is part of the double foul.



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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Dec 14, 2023 at 04:16pm.
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 04:01pm
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Dead Or Alive ...

I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2023, 04:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?
That is what Bob is asserting.

I never heard or read that stance before.

The only exception for a try to count when a shooter has committed a foul is when the try is released and there is a double foul. The exception doesn't say "once the shooter has begun their continuous motion".

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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Dec 14, 2023 at 04:23pm.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 15, 2023, 08:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm having trouble following this thread.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: ... after the release ... The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try.

This situation is after the release.

Is it the same (not dead) before the release due to continuous motion?

Is that what's being debated?
4-11-2 and -3 (continuous motion) conflict; both are true in a double foul.

6-7-7 (dead ball) comes into play -- does exception C apply?

That's the issue.
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Old Fri Dec 15, 2023, 01:13pm
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To Be, Or Not To Be (Prince Hamlet, Hamlet, William Shakespeare) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
That's the issue.
Thanks.

Can it be solved?
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Old Sun Dec 17, 2023, 04:34pm
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Let's Go To The Videotape ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
4-11-2 and -3 (continuous motion) conflict;
4-11-2: If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

4-11-3: Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Is a "teammate" be the same as the "player" (shooter) himself?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 17, 2023 at 06:21pm.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 15, 2023, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
We have had this discussion multiple times -- with no clear consensus. Nor have I seen an official interp on this.

The ball doesn't become dead when the defense fouls (the rule does NOT say "single defensive foul" or similar) and a try has been started. And, since it's not a PC foul, ...
6-7-7 Makes the ball dead because the exception only applies for an opponent fouling. In the case of a double foul, you have an offensive foul too, this the dead ball is excepted for the defensive part of the foul but it is dead because a foul other than PC/TC has occurred and it wasn't by the defense. 6-7-7 list a bunch of conditions that all make the ball dead. If any one of them occur and are not excepted, the ball is dead.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Sat Dec 16, 2023 at 01:32pm.
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Old Fri Dec 15, 2023, 07:19pm
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The dreaded "blarge" has been in the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules since the days of the NBC despite the fact that when it comes to B1 being "guilty" of a Block and A1 being "guilty" of a Charge, by Rule a "blarge" cannot occur. Either B1 has Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP or B1 has NOT Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP.

The NCAA Women's Rules has done it correctly every since the NCAA Women's Rules Committee supplanted the AIAW. The Official whose has the Ball at the start of the drive takes the Call.

I know that I am going to catch "heck" from some people for what I am about to say but from the very start of my officiating career I pre-gamed "blarges" out of my boys'/girls' JrHS/HS, and men's jr. college/college JV games. Because as I have stated for almost 60 years the Rules state that "blarges" CANNOT happen.

Enjoy the weekend everyone!

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Old Fri Dec 15, 2023, 10:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
TThe Official whose has the Ball at the start of the drive takes the Call.
That's not always the NCAAW mechanic
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Old Sat Dec 16, 2023, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
That's not always the NCAAW mechanic
Bob:

I was writing quickly. I knew that it was not as simple as that but back in the middle and late 1980s the procedure was introduced in CCA's Women's Two- and Three-Person Officials Manual. I am sure that the procedure has been refined since I retired from college officiating in 2008. But the fact still remains: By Rule, it is has never been possible to have a "blarge". The NCAA Women's Committee understood this from the start while the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees still cling to a 65 year-plus impossibility.

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