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Old Sun Mar 12, 2023, 09:05am
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Running out of bounds to fool opponents

Had this yesterday. Team A secures a rebound in the first half. Player A-1 who was on the floor trotts along the sideline out of bounds in front of the table and opposing bench before returning to the floor under the basket A is shooting at. NFHS rules.... is this a technical foul or just a violation.
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Old Sun Mar 12, 2023, 10:46am
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Violation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbruno View Post
Team A secures a rebound in the first half. Player A-1 who was on the floor trotts along the sideline out of bounds in front of the table and opposing bench before returning to the floor under the basket A is shooting at. NFHS rules.... is this a technical foul or just a violation.
Violation.

NFHS 9-3-3: A player must not leave the court for an unauthorized reason. Penalty: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of bounds spot nearest the violation.

9.3.3 SITUATION B: A1 and A2 set a double screen near the end line. A3 intentionally goes out of bounds outside the end line to have his/her defender detained by the double screen. RULING: The official shall call a violation on A3 as soon as he/she steps out of bounds. The ball is awarded to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A few years ago (maybe it was a few decades ago) I had an offensive player run out of bounds around a screen, and he almost ran me over as the lead official. It surprised me, and I let it go, but vowed to call the violation the next time he did it. After a switch after a foul, my partner was now the lead on the same endline and made the call without me telling him anything about the situation.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 12, 2023 at 11:17am.
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Old Sun Mar 12, 2023, 11:01am
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Technical Fouls ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbruno View Post
Team A secures a rebound in the first half. Player A-1 who was on the floor trotts along the sideline out of bounds in front of the table and opposing bench before returning to the floor under the basket A is shooting at. NFHS rules.... is this a technical foul or just a violation.
This play above is a violation.

Do not confuse the play above with these technical fouls below.

10-4-1: Player Technical: A player must not: Purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds.

10.4.2 SITUATION A: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in. A1 completes the throw-in to A2 and then purposefully delays his/her return by taking four or five steps along the end line prior to coming inbounds behind a screen set by A3 and A4. A1 gets a return pass from A2 and takes an unchallenged try for goal. RULING: A1 is charged with a technical foul for purposefully delaying his/her return to the court following the throw-in. A1s movement out of bounds along the end line was to take advantage of the screen and return to the court in a more advantageous position.

10-4-6-I : Player Technical: A player must not: Leave the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust or intimidation.

10.4.6 SITUATION C: With 4 minutes remaining in the second quarter, B1 commits his/her third foul against airborne shooter A1; the try is unsuccessful. Team Bs coach sends B6 to the scorers table to replace B1 after A1s first free-throw. B1s replacement may not enter the game until after A1s first free throw. B1, disgusted with the officials ruling and realizing he/she will soon leave the game, goes and sits on the end of Team Bs bench just after the official reports the foul. RULING: B1 is assessed an unsporting technical foul for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate disgust. A1 will attempt the two shooting-foul free throws followed by any Team A member attempting the two free throws for the technical foul. (10-3-6i; 3-3-2)
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Old Sun Mar 12, 2023, 11:20am
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Ancient Times ...

Some contend that leaving the court for an unauthorized reason, now a violation, was a technical foul in ancient times.

I'm a pretty good basketball rules historian, but don't remember this change.

How about it Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?
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Old Sun Mar 12, 2023, 01:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Some contend that leaving the court for an unauthorized reason, now a violation, was a technical foul in ancient times.

I'm a pretty good basketball rules historian, but don't remember this change.

How about it Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?
100% true. It became a violation instead of a technical foul about 14 years ago.
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Old Sun Mar 12, 2023, 01:17pm
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One Combined Rule ...

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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
It (leaving the court for an unauthorized reason) became a violation instead of a technical foul about 14 years ago.
Previous to that both leaving the court for an unauthorized reason and delay returning after legally being out of bounds were combined in one rule as a technical foul.

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes - 9-3-2 New Changed the penalty for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason to a violation from a technical foul.

COMMENTS ON THE 2005-06 RULES REVISIONS - LEAVING COURT FOR UNAUTHORIZED REASON CHANGED TO VIOLATION (9-3-2): The rule for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason has been changed from a technical foul to a violation. Leaving the court during the course of play has been increasing with the former penalty of a technical foul not being assessed. Typically, this play is seen when an offensive player goes around a low screen, runs outside the end line and returns on the other side of the court free of their defender. The violation will be called as soon as the player leaves the court. The committee hopes that changing the penalty will increase the likelihood of the infraction being called and eliminate this tremendous advantage.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 12, 2023 at 01:21pm.
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Old Sun Mar 12, 2023, 07:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
100% true. It became a violation instead of a technical foul about 14 years ago.
They should make the delay returning inbounds after legally being OOB the same. It makes no sense for that to be a T for the same reasons this was changed.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2023, 10:21am
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Rationale ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
They should make the delay returning inbounds after legally being OOB the same. It makes no sense for that to be a T for the same reasons this was changed.
Through my state IAABO board and my state interscholastic sports governing body I suggested this to the NFHS a few years ago, with the rationale being that the technical foul penalty was not being assessed and that changing the penalty to a violation would likely increase the likelihood of the infraction being called.

My suggestion made its way all the way up the ladder to the NFHS rules committee and was actually on the table at the final meeting, but was not accepted.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 13, 2023 at 02:22pm.
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Old Mon Mar 13, 2023, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
They should make the delay returning inbounds after legally being OOB the same. It makes no sense for that to be a T for the same reasons this was changed.
It seems to this outsider that having different penalties here causes a perverse, or at least strange, incentive. If the player in the throw-in example wants to achieve the same effect as tactically delaying his return in-bounds, he could come in bounds, then go out of bounds again, and be subject only to a violation rather than a technical foul. Not only that, but the discrimination would rest on an official's having close watch on both feet of a player off the ball.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
They should make the delay returning inbounds after legally being OOB the same. It makes no sense for that to be a T for the same reasons this was changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Through my state IAABO board and my state interscholastic sports governing body I suggested this to the NFHS a few years ago, with the rationale being that the technical foul penalty was not being assessed and that changing the penalty to a violation would likely increase the likelihood of the infraction being called.

My suggestion made its way all the way up the ladder to the NFHS rules committee and was actually on the table at the final meeting, but was not accepted.

I've proposed the same thing.

I've even called this a violation (only seen it summer/travel ball) instead of the "correct" T because it's an absurd rule difference.

It's not a rule people know, not even coaches. I usually just tell a player "get in, get in" after a second or so and they oblige. If they are delaying, the don't know it's illegal - so hitting them with a T for it is excessively punitive.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2023, 11:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
I've proposed the same thing.

I've even called this a violation (only seen it summer/travel ball) instead of the "correct" T because it's an absurd rule difference.

It's not a rule people know, not even coaches. I usually just tell a player "get in, get in" after a second or so and they oblige. If they are delaying, the don't know it's illegal - so hitting them with a T for it is excessively punitive.
This is similar to people not knowing that flopping, or "faking being fouled" in rulebook language, is a technical foul under NFHS rules (10-4-6-f).

I have seen and called flopping, but I have yet to see people not coming back inbounds after a throw-in.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2023, 12:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This is similar to people not knowing that flopping, or "faking being fouled" in rulebook language, is a technical foul under NFHS rules (10-4-6-f).

I have seen and called flopping, but I have yet to see people not coming back inbounds after a throw-in.
While it's true few people know this rule exists, and at risk of wading into a different issue, "flopping" and "faking being fouled" are distinctly different acts in practice.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2023, 07:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
While it's true few people know this rule exists, and at risk of wading into a different issue, "flopping" and "faking being fouled" are distinctly different acts in practice.
What is the difference? As far as I know, if a player falls down to try to draw a call, it is both faking being fouled and flopping.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2023, 01:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
What is the difference? As far as I know, if a player falls down to try to draw a call, it is both faking being fouled and flopping.
I don't want to get into a semantic debate lol

That said, if the NFHS or IAABO wanted us to deem "flops" worthy of technical fouls, it would have been a point of emphasis at some point. They clearly do not, despite "flopping" being something both NCAA and NBA have attempted to address in the last decade.
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Old Wed Mar 22, 2023, 01:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
I don't want to get into a semantic debate lol

That said, if the NFHS or IAABO wanted us to deem "flops" worthy of technical fouls, it would have been a point of emphasis at some point. They clearly do not, despite "flopping" being something both NCAA and NBA have attempted to address in the last decade.
NCAA-Men's has done a good job of addressing it and defining it.
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