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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 22, 2023, 02:10pm
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Flop ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
I don't want to get into a semantic debate ...
A flop is when it's called.

Or is it vice versa?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 23, 2023, 10:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
NCAA-Men's has done a good job of addressing it and defining it.
Other than the call essentially disappearing over the last month, I agree.

My point is that what is a "flop" in an NCAA game is different from "faking being fouled." If NFHS/IAABO deemed it necessary to address, they would make it a point of emphasis - and ideally, they'd give us a penalty less than a T to apply.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 23, 2023, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
Other than the call essentially disappearing over the last month, I agree.

My point is that what is a "flop" in an NCAA game is different from "faking being fouled." If NFHS/IAABO deemed it necessary to address, they would make it a point of emphasis - and ideally, they'd give us a penalty less than a T to apply.
They are the same to me. IMO, too many people confine the definition of flop to defenders on potential crash plays. Most flopping I see at the HS level is 3 point shooters throwing themselves to the ground--trying to fool the referee into calling a foul. Same with the head bob by ballhandlers and defenders who run into screens.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 23, 2023, 11:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
They are the same to me. IMO, too many people confine the definition of flop to defenders on potential crash plays. Most flopping I see at the HS level is 3 point shooters throwing themselves to the ground--trying to fool the referee into calling a foul. Same with the head bob by ballhandlers and defenders who run into screens.
Have you ever penalized such action with a technical foul?

There is no reason why the penalty should be 2-shots AND possession AND a personal foul when in the NCAA is merely 1 shot and POI.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 23, 2023, 01:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
Have you ever penalized such action with a technical foul?

There is no reason why the penalty should be 2-shots AND possession AND a personal foul when in the NCAA is merely 1 shot and POI.
In a college games, yes. In a HS game, no.

But that doesn't change the fact that HS players frequently throw themselves to the ground after 3-pointers and bob their heads like they've been shot in the forehead all for the purposes of fooling the officials into thinking they've been fouled.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2023, 10:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Violation.

NFHS 9-3-3: A player must not leave the court for an unauthorized reason. Penalty: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of bounds spot nearest the violation.

9.3.3 SITUATION B: A1 and A2 set a double screen near the end line. A3 intentionally goes out of bounds outside the end line to have his/her defender detained by the double screen. RULING: The official shall call a violation on A3 as soon as he/she steps out of bounds. The ball is awarded to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.
*Our crew had this play in a game this season and the ref who whistled the action called it a technical foul. We very briefly convened and I told the ref that it should've been a violation, but he insisted on the tech and rushed to administer accordingly. This occurred early in the first quarter; when we met during the between-quarter break he told us both that he'd had the same odd play in previous game and ruled it the same way "those trick plays don't fool me", he proudly proclaimed.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2023, 11:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*Our crew had this play in a game this season and the ref who whistled the action called it a technical foul. We very briefly convened and I told the ref that it should've been a violation, but he insisted on the tech and rushed to administer accordingly. This occurred early in the first quarter; when we met during the between-quarter break he told us both that he'd had the same odd play in previous game and ruled it the same way "those trick plays don't fool me", he proudly proclaimed.
Did he go out of bounds to just avoid a screen or did he delay coming back on the court in some way? Because delaying coming to the court is actually a technical foul. That is according to 10.4.2 Situation A.

Peace
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 29, 2023, 07:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Did he go out of bounds to just avoid a screen or did he delay coming back on the court in some way? Because delaying coming to the court is actually a technical foul. That is according to 10.4.2 Situation A.

Peace
*Nothing was special about that play, I was the C, and it was a simple throw in from the opposite sideline of where I was. The player/pass receiver appeared to just run out of bounds to avoid defensive pressure. The ref called a Tech.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 30, 2023, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*Nothing was special about that play, I was the C, and it was a simple throw in from the opposite sideline of where I was. The player/pass receiver appeared to just run out of bounds to avoid defensive pressure. The ref called a Tech.
No tech unless the player doing throw-in, who was already legally oob, delayed returning inbounds.

Your sitch was a violation for intentionally leaving the court.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 30, 2023, 02:22pm
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Rare Play ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Your sitch was a violation for intentionally leaving the court ...
... for an unauthorized reason.

NFHS 9-3-3: A player must not leave the court for an unauthorized reason. Penalty: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of bounds spot nearest the violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
No tech unless the player doing throw-in, who was already legally oob, delayed returning inbounds.
10-4-1: Player Technical: A player must not: Purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds.

We also have the rare case of a technical foul for a player, who was not legally out of bounds (not a throwin play), leaving the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust, or intimidation.

10-4-6-I : Player Technical: A player must not: Leave the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust, or intimidation.

Seen this called only once in forty-plus years. Called a foul on a player (not her fifth foul) who was verbally upset with the official who made the foul call and then ran off the court (not waiting for a substitute) straight into the locker room. After checking with the coach that it was for an unauthorized reason (not a bathroom break, injury, etc.) we charged her with the technical foul.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 30, 2023 at 05:37pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2023, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
No tech unless the player doing throw-in, who was already legally oob, delayed returning inbounds.

Your sitch was a violation for intentionally leaving the court.
*At the time that action occurred I had informed the ruling referee of such; however, as I stated earlier the ruling referee was self-assured and had ostensibly adjudicated similar plays in the past. Basically, I "said my peace" and we moved on.
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