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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:03am
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Girls games

Our group leaders recently noted that some experienced / veteran refs are preferring to work only boy's games instead of girl's games--even at the varsity and state playoffs levels. This poses a problem bcuz: 1) it reduces the pool of available refs who are officiating them, 2) it diminishes the mentoring capacity in that veteran refs can't be paired with novice refs if the vet doesn't do girl's, 3) it possibly decreases the quality of girl's games. However, the game fee of $90 is the same for both types of games. I haven't had the chance to ask them why they do not want to work their games, but I will work either type of contest. What, if any, would be a reasonable explanation for not doing girl's?

Last edited by Kansas Ref; Wed Nov 23, 2022 at 11:06am. Reason: Grammar
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:33am
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Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
Our group leaders recently noted that some experienced / veteran refs are preferring to work only boy's games instead of girl's games--even at the varsity and state playoffs levels. This poses a problem bcuz: 1) it reduces the pool of available refs who are officiating them, 2) it diminishes the mentoring capacity in that veteran refs can't be paired with novice refs if the vet doesn't do girl's, 3) it possibly decreases the quality of girl's games. However, the game fee of $90 is the same for both types of games. I haven't had the chance to ask them why they do not want to work their games, but I will work either type of contest. What, if any, would be a reasonable explanation for not doing girl's?
If I were generous, I'd say they are simply aware that they are better at officiating boys basketball. (I fall into this camp, in that I find myself much less sure of my calls during high level girls games).

I think we all know why these gentlemen don't want to work girls games. It's sad and shouldn't be allowed. Girls teams deserve the same quality of official, period. Of course, if these refs think that little of girls games, it's likely a net positive that they aren't on those games.
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:35am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Simple, because they do not want to. And that is their right. I do not work any girls games either and one reason is I have enough days of the week I am out of the house. I do not want to add more games or debate of which game I will take. Also not the same assignors as well, so I have fewer people I have to deal with.

Also, girls basketball is not boys basketball. What I mean is there are things that happen in girls basketball that do not happen in boys basketball from a contact standpoint and a reaction standpoint. The culture is just different and I have enough time trying to figure out the levels I work, then to add some stuff that I never have to see or deal with in boys basketball. Also, I do college ball, girls basketball would just cause me some bad habits and some standards that I would have to constantly adjust to. Boy's basketball as the HS level is very similar to Men's basketball in college. I do not have to do many adjustments.

Finally, we are independent contractors. I have the right to decide what I want to do when I leave my house. We do not do this for charity or for some altruistic reason. We get paid to do a service and if I am going to get paid I am going to do what I want to do. Same with middle school or adult league games. I have only so many days to do things with a family and with a job.

We need to stop acting like this is an obligation. Just like there is an obligation to work all levels of basketball. Either we accept some things or people will stop officiating and that will take down the pool even more.

Peace
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:40am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
If I were generous, I'd say they are simply aware that they are better at officiating boys basketball. (I fall into this camp, in that I find myself much less sure of my calls during high level girls games).

I think we all know why these gentlemen don't want to work girls games. It's sad and shouldn't be allowed. Girls teams deserve the same quality of official, period. Of course, if these refs think that little of girls games, it's likely a net positive that they aren't on those games.
How are you going to make someone do something they do not want to do? We cannot make people travel for games. I work college ball, I am not giving up a college game for some girl's basketball and you could not make me without violating some basic laws. And then instead of losing an official for girls basketball, you lose and official period.

Peace
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 12:00pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
How are you going to make someone do something they do not want to do? We cannot make people travel for games. I work college ball, I am not giving up a college game for some girl's basketball and you could not make me without violating some basic laws. And then instead of losing an official for girls basketball, you lose and official period.

Peace
When it comes it comes to working extra nights, turning back higher level games, it's an entirely different issue than the one presented, at least as I read it.

Where I work, girls and boys do not have different assignors. And I've heard countless official complain about girls assignments vs boys or refer to them as "just" a girls game. FWIW, to work the postseason here in Colorado, you are required to work a certain number of both boys and girls games.

Obviously I'm not suggesting people be forced to work girls games if they are opposed. Just pointing out that in a lot of cases, the reasons for not wanting to work girls games is sexist and insulting. This isn't always the case, but it's a prevalent enough to discuss.
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 12:10pm
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Adjustments ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... girls basketball is not boys basketball. What I mean is there are things that happen in girls basketball that do not happen in boys basketball from a contact standpoint and a reaction standpoint. The culture is just different ...
Agree.

My toughest adjustments were when I worked a girls varsity game on a Thursday night and then a boys varsity game on a Friday night. It was like going from "slow motion" to "fast forward". Sometimes it took me almost the entire Friday night first quarter to "wake up and smell the coffee".

I remember that there was one year, where for some unknown scheduling reason, I was assigned several girls preseason scrimmages and no boys preseason scrimmages.

My first "real" game was a boys varsity game that included a state finalist from the previous year. That was a very rude awakening.

I can still vividly remember an "over the back" call that I probably missed very early in the game, with the offended coach having the same exact view that I had as the trail.

It was all happening so fast.

For some reason the opposite (boys to girls) adjustment isn't as difficult.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Nov 23, 2022 at 04:05pm.
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 12:10pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
When it comes it comes to working extra nights, turning back higher level games, it's an entirely different issue than the one presented, at least as I read it.

Where I work, girls and boys do not have different assignors. And I've heard countless official complain about girls assignments vs boys or refer to them as "just" a girls game. FWIW, to work the postseason here in Colorado, you are required to work a certain number of both boys and girls games.

Obviously I'm not suggesting people be forced to work girls games if they are opposed. Just pointing out that in a lot of cases, the reasons for not wanting to work girls games is sexist and insulting. This isn't always the case, but it's a prevalent enough to discuss.
OK, but that is where you work. Yes, we have some assignors that assign both, but that is not common. And if they tried to give a boy's official a girl's game, they would get some blowback. They would from me. And one reason I do not take girls games is because I do not want to constantly be turning back games. Or asking can I work another game, so why would I want to make myself available for that headache?

They even tried in our area to play back-to-back games with girls and boys and found out how much no one came to watch the girls games. They would literally play the girls games last and everyone would come for the boys game and leave when it was over. It was actually demoralizing, so they stopped doing that after a year or two. So if you cannot get fans to come and watch the games equally, how are you going to get officials who are largely male to do the same? And when you have female officials they move on to the college ranks because that level scoops them up.

Not trying to debate the overall gender preferences, just saying that if you "make" someone do something then they will find reasons not to do that. You cannot tell me when I am available for something or why I do something else. We are not paid enough to have that kind of information to some guy that is not paying a pension or health insurance.

Peace
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 12:32pm
beware big brother
 
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It is very simple for me. Compared to boy's/men's basketball, girl's/women's basketball sucks. I would not officiate a women's game if the pay was double what I could get for a men's game.
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 12:37pm
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At the high school level where I live, 95% of assignments are G/B doubleheaders. They play on the same nights and at the same location. Being a “boy’s only” official isn’t an option.
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 12:46pm
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Quality ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
Girls teams deserve the same quality of official, period.
Agree in theory, in a "Pollyanna", rose-colored glasses world.

My local board used to have an incentive to work both genders throughout the season because our local board (the only local board in the state to do so) allowed us to work both genders in the state tournament if we were selected (votes) by the both gender coaches.

Now, if selected for both genders in the state tournament we have to "declare" which single gender we will work in the state tournament. This allows for a much larger "pool" of local officials getting state tournament games, which, in theory, is good news.

Note: This created a lot of discord at our local meetings, with many veteran officials complaining that they deserved to work both genders in the state tournament games if they were selected by the votes of both groups of coaches.

With the change, many of our local officials (especially female officials working only girls games) have opted, as is now allowed, to become "boys officials" or "girls officials" for the regular season, figuring that the more games they work for single gender teams the more "votes" they are likely to get from single gender coaches for selection for the single gender state tournament.

I travel all over my small state observing a dozen or so boys and girls state tournament games involving my local officials every year.

I can definitely tell you with great assurance that since we changed to "pick a single gender state tournament games" (and pick a single gender regular season games) the quality of officials in girls state tournament games has greatly suffered, all the way to the semifinals.

Has the change allowed some younger, less experienced officials to have a state tournament experience? Yes, and that may be a good thing.

But it's comes at the expense of girls getting lower quality officials for both regular season games and state tournament games.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Nov 23, 2022 at 02:16pm.
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Old Wed Nov 23, 2022, 01:06pm
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To me it was quality. After my first season of officiating, I was no longer doing it for the money. I didn't mind doing decent-to-high quality girls games, but I had no desire to drag myself to gyms in the cold of winter to referee bad basketball. I put myself in a position that my HS supervisors wanted me on their boys games, especially games where they needed a strong presence to keep things in check.

The first half of my career I was a single parent of 2 with a 50% custody schedule. I didn't want to spend my free time officiating games I didn't enjoy.

I can mentor and teach without being on the court with someone. I mentor a few officials now who work NCAA-Women's basketball. My first mentor when I started out was a female who is now a D1/D2 women's conference supervisor.

I also have a lot of the same thoughts Jeff has on the subject that carried over to what games I would work in the off-season, boys or girls.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Nov 23, 2022 at 01:13pm.
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Old Thu Nov 24, 2022, 12:09am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
To me it was quality. After my first season of officiating, I was no longer doing it for the money. I didn't mind doing decent-to-high quality girls games, but I had no desire to drag myself to gyms in the cold of winter to referee bad basketball. I put myself in a position that my HS supervisors wanted me on their boys games, especially games where they needed a strong presence to keep things in check.
I've never been picky, and as I've settled into quasi-veteran status, I'm happy to earn a HS game check on either side.

Do I prefer boys basketball? Depends on the quality in the area I'm working. In SE Virginia, I'd agree with Raymond; there are very few quality girls teams in that area. Luckily the supervisor I had there the last few years had a healthy roster of female officials plus those that just preferred girls, so I got an exclusively boys schedule without even asking. But in some other states I've worked where the quality of girls basketball is much better (e.g. Wisconsin and Kansas), I was always happy working both genders.

There are some places in America where girls basketball is quite putrid. You can tell places where there is a proclivity for girls to eschew picking up a basketball until their freshman year in high school. Why that's a phenomenon in some places and not in others, I'm not sure. When it comes to sports participation, it seems like there are geographic feminine sub-cultures in this country.

I've never really suffered from "change-of-pace-itus" from one night or level to the next. I can spool up or down pretty easily. I know that's not easy for everyone, so I guess I'm lucky in that regard.
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Old Thu Nov 24, 2022, 08:08am
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For some officials this is a math problem. In Ohio to be tournament eligible, you have to do 14 boys varsity games to be elible to do the boys tournament(same game reequirements for girls only). Or You can do 10 BV and 10GV to be eligible and do one or both tournaments
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Old Thu Nov 24, 2022, 08:15am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
I've never been picky, and as I've settled into quasi-veteran status, I'm happy to earn a HS game check on either side.

Do I prefer boys basketball? Depends on the quality in the area I'm working. In SE Virginia, I'd agree with Raymond; there are very few quality girls teams in that area. Luckily the supervisor I had there the last few years had a healthy roster of female officials plus those that just preferred girls, so I got an exclusively boys schedule without even asking. But in some other states I've worked where the quality of girls basketball is much better (e.g. Wisconsin and Kansas), I was always happy working both genders.

There are some places in America where girls basketball is quite putrid. You can tell places where there is a proclivity for girls to eschew picking up a basketball until their freshman year in high school. Why that's a phenomenon in some places and not in others, I'm not sure. When it comes to sports participation, it seems like there are geographic feminine sub-cultures in this country.

I've never really suffered from "change-of-pace-itus" from one night or level to the next. I can spool up or down pretty easily. I know that's not easy for everyone, so I guess I'm lucky in that regard.
If there is that good of girls basketball in the country, please tell me where that is. And honestly, that is not the point of why some never want to work girls basketball. When I work small college games, often there is a girls game before our game and they look undesirable most of the time. So if there is an abundance of girls games that people are working 30 and 40 a year consistently, I really would like to be informed where those great games can be or desirable enough for someone like me to work is wanting to work them. I say that because we have many D1 players in this area and they often do not play each other or they the majority of teams cannot compete with teams with those kinds of players on any level. It is mainly girls that get scores like 78 to 10 where I am from. A bad boys game might be 78 to 50, but it is not common to get that kind of score in most cases. And we have a running clock rule if you are 30 points in the 4th quarter which in my experience rarely happens. Even the game I did yesterday afternoon, the teams were widely different in talent and we never got to at 30-point differential in the game.

I get we are trying to have this reasonable conversation where we all love both sides of the game, but many simply don't. And it is not just the officials, it is the fans. That is OK. But if you start making everyone have to do both you will lose the some you have IMO. At least if that is a cross-country thing. Not every school plays boys and girls at the same location at the same night.

Peace
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Old Thu Nov 24, 2022, 08:43am
CJP CJP is offline
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Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
Our group leaders recently noted that some experienced / veteran refs are preferring to work only boy's games instead of girl's games--even at the varsity and state playoffs levels. This poses a problem bcuz: 1) it reduces the pool of available refs who are officiating them, 2) it diminishes the mentoring capacity in that veteran refs can't be paired with novice refs if the vet doesn't do girl's, 3) it possibly decreases the quality of girl's games. However, the game fee of $90 is the same for both types of games. I haven't had the chance to ask them why they do not want to work their games, but I will work either type of contest. What, if any, would be a reasonable explanation for not doing girl's?
I never turned down a game based on sex. Girls games in general were less enjoyable due to the skill disparity between teams. Blowouts are quite common. In my very rural area, scheduling is tough and I am not aware of officials focusing on boys or girls. I could see the advantage of specializing if working college games. I know regional college officials typically work only boys or girls.

If it does become a problem here in the future, I would support my local school district in paying more for girl's games officials.
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