Technical Foul ???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2. As A2 and B2 go after a loose ball, B2 lands on A2 in an attempt to get the ball. A2 then elbows B2 in the chest. The Trail official blows their whistle. B2 then shoves A2. A2 and B2 receive a double personal foul and B2 is called for an intentional foul. Is the official correct?

2. No: (4-19-1) Personal foul on B2; (4-19-3) Intentional foul on A2; (4-19-5) Technical foul on B2; fouls and free throws are assessed in order ending with Team B inbounding at the division line.

I see two simple options.

A) Call the first two fouls a double live ball foul and forget about the intentional aspect. Just two free throws for the technical foul (third foul).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

IAABO (whom I am questioning) says no to double foul (though not the aspect I'm questioning).

B) Three separate fouls. Personal foul (possible bonus free throws). Intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws). Another intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Call the first two fouls a double live ball foul and forget about the intentional aspect. Just two free throws for the technical foul (third foul).

Not a big fan of ignoring the intentional aspect (if intentional was so deemed: A2 then elbows B2 in the chest) and the two free throw penalty.

But if we call it a double foul, that dictates no free throws.

What if the second foul was deemed live ball intentional (intentional as deemed by IAABO)?

Does that automatically preclude us from calling it a live ball double foul?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Can half of a double foul be intentional?

Maybe we're talking about a retaliatory (not flagrant), knee-jerk reaction, intentional (generic), pre-meditated elbow a split second after the pile on (all before the whistle)?

[BillyMac]

4-19-8: Double fouls: a. A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time. b. A double technical foul is a situation in which two opponents commit technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

In order for it to be a double foul, both have to be personal or both have to be technical.

Let's assume that both occurred at approximately the same time (both before a whistle), so two personal fouls, a double foul.

But can a double personal foul include one common foul and one intentional foul?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... a retaliatory (not flagrant), knee-jerk reaction, intentional (generic), pre-meditated elbow a split second after the pile on (all before the whistle)?

... and if so, do we shoot free throws for the intentional, or not shoot free throws?

Does intentional "trump" double? Or does double "trump" intentional?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Three separate fouls. Personal foul (possible bonus free throws). Intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws). Another intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws).

This is the easy way out, but is it correct?

[Mike.Connors]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This is the easy way out, but is it correct?

I believe you are correct. Remember the passage in Basketball Rules Fundamentals that says "16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)."? The foul of B2 landing on A2 causes the ball to become dead by rule 6-7-7. The subsequent foul by A2 with the elbow is thus an intentional technical foul and the foul by B2 shoving A2 is also an intentional technical foul. I believe where IAABO erred is not describing the second and third fouls in the sequence by A2 as both being (intentional) technical fouls. You might even be able to simplify and rule the last two fouls as a double technical foul and avoid free throws for those and just resume at POI. Now that's really an easy way out. Who can argue with simplification?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike.Connors

You might even be able to simplify and rule the last two fouls as a double technical foul ...

Thanks Mannix.

Fight?

4-18-1: Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... A2 then elbows B2 in the chest ... B2 then shoves A2 ...

Just spit-balling.

[Mike.Connors]

Sure, the activity could be considered fighting. It is likely a situation where the crew discusses to determine if an upgrade is warranted based on what was, or was not, observed by each official.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mike.Connors

I believe you are correct. Remember the passage in Basketball Rules Fundamentals that says "16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)."? The foul of B2 landing on A2 causes the ball to become dead by rule 6-7-7. The subsequent foul by A2 with the elbow is thus an intentional technical foul and the foul by B2 shoving A2 is also an intentional technical foul.

If that were true, it would pretty much be impossible to have a double foul at most points of the game as one almost always happens before the other, even if just slightly.

The rules makers cover this by defining double fouls as "approximately" the same time where the expected result is that the 2nd is considered to still be in a live ball if it happens so close in time.