The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 09:57am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Technical Foul ???

The following appeared in the latest issue of IAABO Inside The Lines under high school rules.

2. As A2 and B2 go after a loose ball, B2 lands on A2 in an attempt to get the ball. A2 then elbows B2 in the chest. The Trail official blows their whistle. B2 then shoves A2. A2 and B2 receive a double personal foul and B2 is called for an intentional foul. Is the official correct?

2. No: (4-19-1) Personal foul on B2; (4-19-3) Intentional foul on A2; (4-19-5) Technical foul on B2; fouls and free throws are assessed in order ending with Team B inbounding at the division line.


Since the initial foul of B2 landing on A2 makes the ball dead, wouldn't the subsequent intentional foul of A2 elbowing B2 in the chest be a technical foul (intentional dead ball contact)?

It makes a difference because it determines who shoots the free throws for this intentional elbow in chest foul (B2 or any Team B member).

NFHS Basketball Rules Fundamental #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 12:10pm.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Since the initial foul of B2 landing on A2 makes the ball dead, wouldn't the subsequent intentional foul of A2 elbowing B2 in the chest be a technical foul (intentional dead ball contact)?
it would be an intentional technical (as opposed to intentional personal) foul.

Since the OP didn't ask about FTs, it doesn't matter to the question asked.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:21am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Broached ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
it would be an intentional technical (as opposed to intentional personal) foul.
Wouldn't the last two fouls in the trio both be "intentional technical(s)"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Since the OP didn't ask about FTs, it doesn't matter to the question asked.
It was broached: "Free throws are assessed in order ...".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 10:49am.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The following appeared in the latest issue of IAABO Inside The Lines under high school rules.

2. As A2 and B2 go after a loose ball, B2 lands on A2 in an attempt to get the ball. A2 then elbows B2 in the chest. The Trail official blows their whistle. B2 then shoves A2. A2 and B2 receive a double personal foul and B2 is called for an intentional foul. Is the official correct?

2. No: (4-19-1) Personal foul on B2; (4-19-3) Intentional foul on A2; (4-19-5) Technical foul on B2; fouls and free throws are assessed in order ending with Team B inbounding at the division line.


Since the initial foul of B2 landing on A2 makes the ball dead, wouldn't the subsequent intentional foul of A2 elbowing B2 in the chest be a technical foul (intentional dead ball contact)?

It makes a difference because it determines who shoots the free throws for this intentional elbow in chest foul (B2 or any Team B member).

NFHS Basketball Rules Fundamental #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

No....this is considered approximately the same time as the first foul. If the dead ball was absolutely instant on the the first contact, you could never have a double foul unless a try were in flight.

If the two fouls both occur before the official can get the whistle blown (or even if the 2nd is as the whistle is being blown), consider that to be approximately the same time. Until the whistle is sounded, there is no reason for either player to stop playing. Contact after the whistle becomes technical because there is no reason for the players to contact each other during that time.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association

Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 01:30pm.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wouldn't the last two fouls in the trio both be "intentional technical(s)"?
Technically, yes, but not really relevant since intentional technical's have no difference in enforcement vs basic technicals.

The intentional element is there largely to judge the contact relative to a live ball situation to determine whether it should be ignored or penalized.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:45pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
What's It Gonna Be ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... this is considered approximately the same time as the first foul ... double foul ...
IAABO (whom I am questioning) says no to double foul (though not the aspect I'm questioning).

Can half of a double foul be intentional?

Double foul implies no free throws.

Intentional foul implies two free throws.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 03:36pm.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:53pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Options ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2. As A2 and B2 go after a loose ball, B2 lands on A2 in an attempt to get the ball. A2 then elbows B2 in the chest. The Trail official blows their whistle. B2 then shoves A2. A2 and B2 receive a double personal foul and B2 is called for an intentional foul. Is the official correct?

2. No: (4-19-1) Personal foul on B2; (4-19-3) Intentional foul on A2; (4-19-5) Technical foul on B2; fouls and free throws are assessed in order ending with Team B inbounding at the division line.
I see two simple options.

A) Call the first two fouls a double live ball foul and forget about the intentional aspect. Just two free throws for the technical foul (third foul).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
IAABO (whom I am questioning) says no to double foul (though not the aspect I'm questioning).
B) Three separate fouls. Personal foul (possible bonus free throws). Intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws). Another intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws).
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 03:36pm.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:57pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Intentional Aspect ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Call the first two fouls a double live ball foul and forget about the intentional aspect. Just two free throws for the technical foul (third foul).
Not a big fan of ignoring the intentional aspect (if intentional was so deemed: A2 then elbows B2 in the chest) and the two free throw penalty.

But if we call it a double foul, that dictates no free throws.

What if the second foul was deemed live ball intentional (intentional as deemed by IAABO)?

Does that automatically preclude us from calling it a live ball double foul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Can half of a double foul be intentional?
Maybe we're talking about a retaliatory (not flagrant), knee-jerk reaction, intentional (generic), pre-meditated elbow a split second after the pile on (all before the whistle)?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 03:23pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 02:24pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Double Foul ...

4-19-8: Double fouls: a. A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time. b. A double technical foul is a situation in which two opponents commit technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

In order for it to be a double foul, both have to be personal or both have to be technical.

Let's assume that both occurred at approximately the same time (both before a whistle), so two personal fouls, a double foul.

But can a double personal foul include one common foul and one intentional foul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... a retaliatory (not flagrant), knee-jerk reaction, intentional (generic), pre-meditated elbow a split second after the pile on (all before the whistle)?
... and if so, do we shoot free throws for the intentional, or not shoot free throws?

Does intentional "trump" double? Or does double "trump" intentional?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Apr 22, 2022 at 02:53pm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 02:30pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Easy Way Out ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Three separate fouls. Personal foul (possible bonus free throws). Intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws). Another intentional dead ball technical foul (anybody shoots free throws).
This is the easy way out, but is it correct?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 03:40pm
Mannix
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Florida
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
This is the easy way out, but is it correct?
I believe you are correct. Remember the passage in Basketball Rules Fundamentals that says "16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)."? The foul of B2 landing on A2 causes the ball to become dead by rule 6-7-7. The subsequent foul by A2 with the elbow is thus an intentional technical foul and the foul by B2 shoving A2 is also an intentional technical foul. I believe where IAABO erred is not describing the second and third fouls in the sequence by A2 as both being (intentional) technical fouls. You might even be able to simplify and rule the last two fouls as a double technical foul and avoid free throws for those and just resume at POI. Now that's really an easy way out. Who can argue with simplification?

Last edited by Mike.Connors; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 03:58pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 04:42pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Fight ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Connors View Post
You might even be able to simplify and rule the last two fouls as a double technical foul ...
Thanks Mannix.

Fight?

4-18-1: Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... A2 then elbows B2 in the chest ... B2 then shoves A2 ...
Just spit-balling.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 04:45pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 04:58pm
Mannix
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Florida
Posts: 2
Thumbs up

Sure, the activity could be considered fighting. It is likely a situation where the crew discusses to determine if an upgrade is warranted based on what was, or was not, observed by each official.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 05:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
IAABO (whom I am questioning) says no to double foul (though not the aspect I'm questioning).

Can half of a double foul be intentional?

Double foul implies no free throws.

Intentional foul implies two free throws.
Yes, half of a double foul can be intentional. The ruling on that is no FTs at all.

The definition of double fouls doesn't preclude one of them being of a different severity than the other....just two "personal" fouls against each other. Then, the penalties go on to say that there are no FTs for double personal fouls.

The rule only explicitly talks about flagrant fouls in this context but that is as a note to explain the rule and there is no reason to think it doesn't apply to intentionals...

Rule 10 Penalty Summary
Quote:
NOTE: If one or both fouls of a double foul are flagrant, no free throws are awarded. Any player who commits a flagrant foul is disqualified.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association

Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Apr 21, 2022 at 09:11pm.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2022, 05:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Connors View Post
I believe you are correct. Remember the passage in Basketball Rules Fundamentals that says "16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)."? The foul of B2 landing on A2 causes the ball to become dead by rule 6-7-7. The subsequent foul by A2 with the elbow is thus an intentional technical foul and the foul by B2 shoving A2 is also an intentional technical foul.
If that were true, it would pretty much be impossible to have a double foul at most points of the game as one almost always happens before the other, even if just slightly.

The rules makers cover this by defining double fouls as "approximately" the same time where the expected result is that the 2nd is considered to still be in a live ball if it happens so close in time.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Technical foul after foul - Good call or not (Video) JRutledge Basketball 3 Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:02pm
NCAA Indirect Technical vs. Bench Technical Foul Smoothieking Basketball 3 Thu Nov 02, 2017 09:52pm
Foul In the Post: One Continuous Action or Technical Foul? APG Basketball 10 Sat Feb 02, 2013 08:24pm
Shots on Intentional foul/Technical foul refd Basketball 16 Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:02am
Common Shooting Foul Followed by a Technical Foul tophat67 Basketball 9 Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:57am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1