End of quarter - "All related activity"

[Altor]

So, going back to my OQ, what I'm gathering is:

Nobody has a hard reference as to whether reporting the foul is "related activity." Most seem to think it isn't, which was my first instinct.

The rest I knew:
If it is part of 2Q: The FTs are shot before the intermission clock starts. 3Q starts with the AP arrow.

If it is part of 3Q: V-HC is additionally assessed and indirect TF and has to sit the rest of the game. The FTs are shot after the intermission clock ends. After the FTs, H is awarded a throw-in opposite the table as part of the penalty. The arrow does not change.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Altor

So, going back to my OQ, what I'm gathering is:

Nobody has a hard reference as to whether reporting the foul is "related activity." Most seem to think it isn't, which was my first instinct.

The rest I knew:
If it is part of 2Q: The FTs are shot before the intermission clock starts. 3Q starts with the AP arrow.

If it is part of 3Q: V-HC is additionally assessed and indirect TF and has to sit the rest of the game. The FTs are shot after the intermission clock ends. After the FTs, H is awarded a throw-in opposite the table as part of the penalty. The arrow does not change.

If you desire a case play or an NFHS annual interpretation ruling, you won’t find one. I haven’t seen such in 25 years.

However, if you look at the text of the rule, I believe that it is quite clear.

“…the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.”

So for a period to not end when the ball becomes dead following the period-ending horn, there must be a foul while a try is in flight and that foul must result in free throws. Since a PC foul does not, this exception does not apply and the quarter is over.

Additionally, the phrase “and all related activity” refers to the free throws, not the quarter, so if there aren’t any free throws, then there cannot be any related activity.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you desire a case play or an NFHS annual interpretation ruling, you won’t find one. I haven’t seen such in 25 years.

However, if you look at the text of the rule, I believe that it is quite clear.

“…the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.”

So for a period to not end when the ball becomes dead following the period-ending horn, there must be a foul while a try is in flight and that foul must result in free throws. Since a PC foul does not, this exception does not apply and the quarter is over.

Additionally, the phrase “and all related activity” refers to the free throws, not the quarter, so if there aren’t any free throws, then there cannot be any related activity.

While I agree the OP should have the T be part of the third quarter, I think it's a slippery slope to put too much stock in the specific wording -- we've seen plenty of examples where the wording is sloppy and a literal reading results in nonsensical interpretations.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you desire a case play or an NFHS annual interpretation ruling, you won’t find one. I haven’t seen such in 25 years.

However, if you look at the text of the rule, I believe that it is quite clear.

“…the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.”

So for a period to not end when the ball becomes dead following the period-ending horn, there must be a foul while a try is in flight and that foul must result in free throws. Since a PC foul does not, this exception does not apply and the quarter is over.

Additionally, the phrase “and all related activity” refers to the free throws, not the quarter, so if there aren’t any free throws, then there cannot be any related activity.

Why not edit the rulebook to reflect that? "The period does not end until all activity related to the foul has ended. This includes reporting the foul and administering the subsequent free throws. If no free throws are appointed, the period is immediately ended, and the intermission begins after the foul is reported to the official scorer." This would clear up some of the confusion in this thread for future games.

[Raymond]

When a player fouls out isn't there a process in place that needs to be adhered to before any other actions ensue, such as commencing an intermission or time out?

If there is a technical foul prior, is the whole notification and substitution process ignored if it is the end of a quarter?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For what it’s worth ... (Note: BillyMac, find the song reference in this post!)

Originally Posted by justacoach

I'm quicker witted than BillyMac, and I didn't have to ask Google...Buffalo Springfield!!!

Nice pop culture reference Nevadaref. Thanks.

Thanks justacoach. I was stumped.

I am very familiar with the song, but didn't know the real name of the song. I thought it was "Stop, Hey What's That Sound".

Stephen Stills said that the name of the song came about when he presented it to the record company executives, "I have this song here, for what it's worth, if you want it." The executives gave the single the parenthetical title "For What It's Worth (Stop, Hey What's That Sound)" (often referred to as simply "For What It's Worth") in order that the song would be more easily recognized.

I'm surprised that I didn't know this. I'm a Stephen Stills and Neil Young (Buffalo Springfield band members) fan (along with Graham Nash and David Crosby).

For the young'uns, the band took their name from a steamroller parked outside their house.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

When a player fouls out isn't there a process in place that needs to be adhered to before any other actions ensue, such as commencing an intermission or time out?

Yes there is because said player needs their identity changed from a player to bench personnel as soon as possible (for indirect technical foul purposes), and this is an important "activity".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes there is because said player needs their identity changed from a player to bench personnel as soon as possible (for indirect technical foul purposes), and this important "activity" can take up to fifteen seconds.

I believe that you are confusing the replacement interval with the notification process. The player immediately becomes bench personnel upon the notification of the coach that the individual has committed a disqualifying foul (fifth total, two technical, or one flagrant). Now it may take up to fifteen seconds for a new player to report and enter the contest, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the status of the disqualified individual.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For the young'uns, the band took their name from a steamroller parked outside their house.

"I’m not sure where they got their name but I know that in the past year they sold enough records and made enough money to buy Buffalo and half of Springfield."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that you are confusing the replacement interval with the notification process. The player immediately becomes bench personnel upon the notification of the coach that the individual has committed a disqualifying foul (fifth total, two technical, or one flagrant).

Agree (changed it).

Did it to point out the official may be standing there for up to fifteen seconds taking the slings and arrows of unsporting conduct.

Can we wait until after the intermission to beckon the substitute? If one believes we can't, has the period really ended before the substitute is beckoned?

I know that we can't grant a timeout request until the substitute is beckoned.

5.8.3 SITUATION C: A1 fouls B2. The scorer notifies the nearest official that this is A1’s fifth foul. The official notifies the coach of Team A of the disqualification. The official then instructs the timer to begin the 15-second replacement period. The official then notifies A1. After 10 seconds have elapsed: (a) the captain of Team A; or (b) the captain of Team B requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the time-out request is denied as disqualified A1 must be replaced prior to any time-out being granted to either team. (2-8-4; 10-5-2)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why not edit the rulebook to reflect that? "The period does not end until all activity related to the foul has ended. This includes reporting the foul and administering the subsequent free throws. If no free throws are appointed, the period is immediately ended, and the intermission begins after the foul is reported to the official scorer." This would clear up some of the confusion in this thread for future games.

The NFHS certainly could have written the rule the way that you describe or could make a change to have it become that. However, that is not the case now, and therefore, the period ends prior to the reporting of any foul for which there will not be any free throws.
There is even a case play in which free throws would be awarded for a foul during a try after the horn, but the team is down by too many points for the free throws to impact the outcome and the ruling is that the quarter is over, yet as the officials are leaving the court the coach of the winning team commits an unsporting technical foul. Now the total number of free throws could make a difference in the winner and the officials must stay and administer until a winner is determined or OT is warranted. So we do have a bizarre case ruling in which a quarter has ended, but then that is reversed due to the game having not yet ended and something else happening.

Originally Posted by Raymond

When a player fouls out isn't there a process in place that needs to be adhered to before any other actions ensue, such as commencing an intermission or time out?

If there is a technical foul prior, is the whole notification and substitution process ignored if it is the end of a quarter?

Yes, but the quarter is still over before the player is officially disqualified. You are correct that a time-out cannot be granted until a DQ’d player is replaced, but a period can certainly end prior to that. In fact, there is no need to replace the player if the game is ending.

For such occurring at the horn of quarters 1, 2, or 3, or with a tied score in the 4th or extra period, the notification and substitution process wouldn’t be ignored, it would simply take place after the official end of the period.

[Raymond]

Final regular season high school game of my career, 19th season doing high school.

First time I've ever called a technical foul going into halftime (assistant coach mouthing off and cursing as I was going to the table)

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[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's clearly wrong.

The only options are:

A) Shoot the FTs for the T as part of the second quarter, start the clock when the FTs are done, leave the arrow with the current team and start the third quarter with an AP throw-in.

B) Start the intermission, leave the arrow with the same team, start the third quarter with the FTs for the T and the throw-in as part of the T penalty.

Bob:

I would go with Option "B". Reporting the PCF is just bookkeeping duties on the part of the covering Official.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Final regular season high school game of my career, 19th season doing high school.

First time I've ever called a technical foul going into halftime (assistant coach mouthing off and cursing as I was going to the table)

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Sorry to hear. HS officiating will be losing a quality ref.
I hope that you will continue to participate on the forum. I’ve always respected your views and opinions, even when you went by BNR.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry to hear. HS officiating will be losing a quality ref.
I hope that you will continue to participate on the forum. I’ve always respected your views and opinions, even when you went by BNR.

Thanks for the kind words. Participating in this forum, and a few of you in particular, are a major reason I have a reputation as a rules guru in my association. There are many times my rules research begins with something posted here.

I plan on staying connected with my association as a camp clinician and in-season observer.

I am also currently mentoring 4 officials:

- one young man who came to us straight out of HS and is now a D1/D3 official and works his HS ball in the Catholic League up in DC. If he sticks with it (he has a great 9-to-5 job that he definitely prioritizes), he'll be in the ACC one day.

- a young lady who just started this past year and wants to be a D1 Men's official. She was one of the all-time leading scorers in D3 history and has been playing overseas professionally for the past decade. She has a great foundation and the right temperament to be successful

- 2 buddies of mine who just finished working their first seasons on the NCAA-Women's side

I'll also continue to post NCAA videos on our association's FB page. Most of what is in those videos applies to HS just as much as it does to college.

(BTW, on my penultimate evening the day before, in my last ever DH, the JV game went quadruple OT, another first for me. My zipper then promptly broke and I had to ref the Varsity game with safety pins holding my fly closed)