CE Scenario

[crosscountry55]

Team B has 6 team fouls per the scoreboard. B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 shoots a one-and-one; he makes the first and misses the second. B2 rebounds the miss and we go the other way. Once the ball is in B’s frontcourt, Coach B goes to the table and requests a time out to discuss a correctable error, which is granted. The scorer checks his totals and (sheepishly) realizes that Team B only had 5 team fouls prior to B1’s common foul, not 6.

You’re the crew chief. What do you do?


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[Raymond]

Unfortunately we have to take the point off the scoreboard and Team B retains the ball. It's a horrible situation. That's why I track team fouls on the scoreboard every time a team commits a foul.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Unfortunately we have to take the point off the scoreboard and Team B retains the ball. It's a horrible situation.

Sometimes the correctable error remedy just doesn't seem fair. But we have to live with it. It is what it is.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sometimes the correctable error remedy just doesn't seem fair. But we have to live with it. It is what it is.

It's why we need to be extra diligent and not have the attitude of "it's not my job to think that hard".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It's why we need to be extra diligent and not have the attitude of "it's not my job to think that hard".

Especially in my middle school games, with no team fouls on the scoreboard, and students often at the table. My antennae always go up when we get close and I always ask, "How many fouls?". My game awareness must be pretty good because the most common answer I get is, "Six", which I relay to my partner. While it may not be my job to keep track of team fouls, it is my job to be aware of important game situations.

Worked a middle school game this week with no scorebook for either team. No team fouls on scoreboard. Three students at the table. Personal and team fouls were kept track of on a sheet of paper torn from a notebook. The kids did a good job, but my partner and I were on "red alert" the entire game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Especially in my middle school games, with no team fouls on the scoreboard, and students often at the table. My antennae always go up when we get close and I always ask, "How many fouls?". My game awareness must be pretty good because the most common answer I get is, "Six", which I relay to my partner. While it may not be my job to keep track of team fouls, it is my job to be aware of important game situations.

Worked a middle school game this week with no scorebook for either team. No team fouls on scoreboard. Three students at the table. Personal and team fouls were kept track of on a sheet of paper torn from a notebook. The kids did a good job, but my partner and I were on "red alert" the entire game.

Get one of those football down-indicators that are worn on the wrist Move it to a different finger for each foul (presumably you'd have enough game awareness to know the difference between the first foul and the sixth).

insert your own blue font

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Get one of those football down-indicators that are worn on the wrist Move it to a different finger for each foul (presumably you'd have enough game awareness to know the difference between the first foul and the sixth).

By using both my fingers and toes, I could keep track of team fouls all the way up to the "double bonus" for both teams.

Of course, that would be difficult for someone like my high school wood shop teacher (and driver education instructor) Mr. Klemkowski, who was missing a thumb. When he taught us how to use the band saw safely, we all listened intently.

[JRutledge]

The table screwed up and the teams allowed them to screw up without saying anything before. That simple. Not about the rule being fair IMO. If you are on top of this you would be raising the flag before we shoot the FT. Considering that is not a common complaint, I might listen and try to investigate.

Yes I try to monitor the scoreboard, but it has been wrong so many times in my career I ask but they ultimately tell me where we are.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The table screwed up and the teams allowed them to screw up without saying anything before ... Considering that is not a common complaint, I might listen and try to investigate.

JRutledge is correct. The offended team, especially their scorekeeper, bears some responsibility.

JRutledge "might" listen. I'm always listening and never ignoring any complaints about team fouls, bonus, or "double bonus". Even some "mumbling" will get my antennae up.

Of course, four years of doing mostly middle school games (post arthritis, post day job retirement, afternoon availability) will do that to me (students at the table, no team fouls on scoreboard).

[crosscountry55]

As you might have guessed, this happened in my game the other night. MS semi-final playoff game, all indications were the table was crisp and on their game. We probably got complacent. But 4th quarter, loud gym, physical game, and very close game. There was a lot to think about, and up until that point we had no reason not to trust the adults at the table.

Then the incident. It was the home scorer and it negatively affected the home team, so that made me feel a little better. Credit to the visiting head coach and his statistician who noticed it in time. I’ve had four or five CEs in 15 years, but this was the first one where the crew didn’t notice on our own. Textbook case of the head coach exercising his right to approach the table.

What really bugs me is that in the moment, we conflated the “no change in possession” rule for merited FTs with unmerited FTs. Gave the ball back to A under their basket after we cancelled the FT. Realized it later that night when something just didn’t feel right and I looked it up. First time I’ve flat-out kicked a rule in over a decade. I’m annoyed with myself.


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[JRutledge]

I do not need you to summarize my comments. I made my comments rather clear in what I said. If you have questions or comments about what I said is fine, but it feels like you have to approve the comments made by other posters. This is getting really old and needs to stop. We all have our process and my process does not have to be approved by anyone. You can take it or leave it. But either way, the rule is clear and if this happens there are ways to try to prevent it from all sides. But once it happens, we are stuck under the rules.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"How many fouls?"

Note that I don't ask, "Are we in the bonus?".

Learned not to ask that a long time ago in my middle school games. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Especially at the beginning of the season, many middle school students at the table aren't really sure what the "bonus" means.

After twenty-five years of coaching middle school basketball, thirty years of officiating Catholic middle school games on my off nights of full varsity schedules, and the last four years of a steady diet of middle school games, I'm whatcha call a middle school basketball officiating expert.

Yep, on my tombstone it will say, "Here Lies BillyMac, Middle School Basketball Officiating Expert".

Hopefully not too soon.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... there are ways to try to prevent it from all sides.

Agree. Lots of things had to go wrong, from lots of stakeholders, for a correctable error to occur.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But once it happens, we are stuck under the rules.

Agree 100%. We can't make up rules as we go along.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But we have to live with it. It is what it is.

[isuphloyd]

I will often work the scoreboard for our freshmen games. I find myself asking after every foul to make sure the player total and team total match up. Sometimes there is 1 book, sometimes there is 2. It is my responsibility to hopefully not add any extra things to the officials plate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... we conflated the “no change in possession” rule for merited FTs with unmerited FTs. Gave the ball back to A under their basket after we cancelled the FT. Realized it later that night when something just didn’t feel right and I looked it up. First time I’ve flat-out kicked a rule in over a decade ...

crosscountry55: Could you be more specific? Not to beat you up, or to embarrass you, but for all of us to learn.