CE Scenario

[crosscountry55]

Team B has 6 team fouls per the scoreboard. B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 shoots a one-and-one; he makes the first and misses the second. B2 rebounds the miss and we go the other way. Once the ball is in B’s frontcourt, Coach B goes to the table and requests a time out to discuss a correctable error, which is granted. The scorer checks his totals and (sheepishly) realizes that Team B only had 5 team fouls prior to B1’s common foul, not 6.

You’re the crew chief. What do you do?


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[Raymond]

Unfortunately we have to take the point off the scoreboard and Team B retains the ball. It's a horrible situation. That's why I track team fouls on the scoreboard every time a team commits a foul.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Unfortunately we have to take the point off the scoreboard and Team B retains the ball. It's a horrible situation.

Sometimes the correctable error remedy just doesn't seem fair. But we have to live with it. It is what it is.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sometimes the correctable error remedy just doesn't seem fair. But we have to live with it. It is what it is.

It's why we need to be extra diligent and not have the attitude of "it's not my job to think that hard".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It's why we need to be extra diligent and not have the attitude of "it's not my job to think that hard".

Especially in my middle school games, with no team fouls on the scoreboard, and students often at the table. My antennae always go up when we get close and I always ask, "How many fouls?". My game awareness must be pretty good because the most common answer I get is, "Six", which I relay to my partner. While it may not be my job to keep track of team fouls, it is my job to be aware of important game situations.

Worked a middle school game this week with no scorebook for either team. No team fouls on scoreboard. Three students at the table. Personal and team fouls were kept track of on a sheet of paper torn from a notebook. The kids did a good job, but my partner and I were on "red alert" the entire game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Especially in my middle school games, with no team fouls on the scoreboard, and students often at the table. My antennae always go up when we get close and I always ask, "How many fouls?". My game awareness must be pretty good because the most common answer I get is, "Six", which I relay to my partner. While it may not be my job to keep track of team fouls, it is my job to be aware of important game situations.

Worked a middle school game this week with no scorebook for either team. No team fouls on scoreboard. Three students at the table. Personal and team fouls were kept track of on a sheet of paper torn from a notebook. The kids did a good job, but my partner and I were on "red alert" the entire game.

Get one of those football down-indicators that are worn on the wrist Move it to a different finger for each foul (presumably you'd have enough game awareness to know the difference between the first foul and the sixth).

insert your own blue font

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"How many fouls?"

Note that I don't ask, "Are we in the bonus?".

Learned not to ask that a long time ago in my middle school games. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Especially at the beginning of the season, many middle school students at the table aren't really sure what the "bonus" means.

After twenty-five years of coaching middle school basketball, thirty years of officiating Catholic middle school games on my off nights of full varsity schedules, and the last four years of a steady diet of middle school games, I'm whatcha call a middle school basketball officiating expert.

Yep, on my tombstone it will say, "Here Lies BillyMac, Middle School Basketball Officiating Expert".

Hopefully not too soon.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Unfortunately we have to take the point off the scoreboard and Team B retains the ball. It's a horrible situation. That's why I track team fouls on the scoreboard every time a team commits a foul.

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Agree with the ruling, but I don't think it is that bad of a situation. It just puts some of the responsibility also on team A to make sure they're not taking FTs they don't deserve. They typically know how many fouls they have too, just like the other team did. If they sit back and allow it to occur when they know otherwise, they're doing so at the risk of losing the FTs and the ball....you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree with the ruling, but I don't think it is that bad of a situation. It just puts some of the responsibility also on team A to make sure they're not taking FTs they don't deserve. They typically know how many fouls they have too, just like the other team did. If they sit back and allow it to occur when they know otherwise, they're doing so at the risk of losing the FTs and the ball....you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Have always hated that line of reasoning to mitigate the crew's (table/officials) responsibility and guilt in the situation. Why should coaches be more aware than officials? Opens the door (or it's already open and been entered) for opponents (especially home teams) to allow the free throws to be shot then wait until they are in possession to issue the challenge.

Must just be the military in me...don't pass the buck.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Have always hated that line of reasoning to mitigate the crew's (table/officials) responsibility and guilt in the situation. Why should coaches be more aware than officials? Opens the door (or it's already open and been entered) for opponents (especially home teams) to allow the free throws to be shot then wait until they are in possession to issue the challenge.

Must just be the military in me...don't pass the buck.

It is not about buck passing, it is about balance of fairness when the situation happens.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Have always hated that line of reasoning to mitigate the crew's (table/officials) responsibility and guilt in the situation. Why should coaches be more aware than officials? Opens the door (or it's already open and been entered) for opponents (especially home teams) to allow the free throws to be shot then wait until they are in possession to issue the challenge.

Must just be the military in me...don't pass the buck.

I disagree because we can ask the table all kinds of things and be given totally wrong information. So I do not put much responsibility on the officials if we are asking or clarifying what we are to do after a foul related to the foul count. Even last night I had a table mix up the fouls on the board and we had to ask for clarification and it was corrected. But if we did not notice (or me specifically) we might have done something incorrectly in the future.

Peace

[crosscountry55]

As you might have guessed, this happened in my game the other night. MS semi-final playoff game, all indications were the table was crisp and on their game. We probably got complacent. But 4th quarter, loud gym, physical game, and very close game. There was a lot to think about, and up until that point we had no reason not to trust the adults at the table.

Then the incident. It was the home scorer and it negatively affected the home team, so that made me feel a little better. Credit to the visiting head coach and his statistician who noticed it in time. I’ve had four or five CEs in 15 years, but this was the first one where the crew didn’t notice on our own. Textbook case of the head coach exercising his right to approach the table.

What really bugs me is that in the moment, we conflated the “no change in possession” rule for merited FTs with unmerited FTs. Gave the ball back to A under their basket after we cancelled the FT. Realized it later that night when something just didn’t feel right and I looked it up. First time I’ve flat-out kicked a rule in over a decade. I’m annoyed with myself.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... we conflated the “no change in possession” rule for merited FTs with unmerited FTs. Gave the ball back to A under their basket after we cancelled the FT. Realized it later that night when something just didn’t feel right and I looked it up. First time I’ve flat-out kicked a rule in over a decade ...

crosscountry55: Could you be more specific? Not to beat you up, or to embarrass you, but for all of us to learn.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

crosscountry55: Could you be more specific? Not to beat you up, or to embarrass you, but for all of us to learn.

We were thinking, “B got the rebound, then they called TO during that possession, so no change in possession means that you ignore POI and put the ball back in play as you would have had the error not occurred.”

But that only happens when there’s a failure to award a merited FT. It has nothing to do the awarding of unmerited FTs.

So all you whipper-snappers out there (because we’re such a young group on this archaic platform and all), don’t make my mistake.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

We were thinking, “B got the rebound, then they called TO during that possession, so no change in possession means that you ignore POI and put the ball back in play as you would have had the error not occurred.” But that only happens when there’s a failure to award a merited FT. It has nothing to do the awarding of unmerited FTs. So all you whipper-snappers out there (because we’re such a young group on this archaic platform and all), don’t make my mistake.

2-10-6: If an error is corrected, play must be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play must resume as after any free-throw attempt(s).