Kevin Durant Critique

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

So based on what I've read in this thread, there are officials who say it is legal for a player to tap the ball from one hand to the other in between dribbles?

Dribble, ball bounces up, A1 taps the ball with his right hand to his left hand, then dribbles (bats the ball to the floor) with his left hand. That is legal and I've been calling it wrong all these years?

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No, you're not wrong. Everyone is just referencing the wrong rule. There is a rule about he dribble ending when touched simultaneously with both hands but that isn't the relevant part.

Once the player bats (or pushes) the ball away form a hand on a dribble, they can't touch it again with a hand until it has hit the floor. This is the relevant article:

Rule 4, Section 15, ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

If what is being discussed were legal, a player could run down the court batting the ball between their hands without ever letting the ball hit the floor. At one time, that was actually legal, but it was long before I was born.

[crosscountry55]

Agree, Raymond is not wrong. I just think a plain reading of 4-15-2 that says “bats into the air” conjures an image of a player popping a ball ten feet into the air over a defender’s head and then going around him/her and touching it again before it comes down, all in an attempt to evade the defender. What it doesn’t conjure up is the “slight of hand” bat that occurred in the OP video. That’s still a “bat into the air” touched again by the hand(s) before the ball contacts the floor, and therefore an illegal dribble.

I guess some of us are implying that maybe 4-15-2 could be written a little better to help the reader envision the scenario.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

"The kid, when going behind his back, almost puts two hands on the ball at the same time (had to double check)."

Context is important. My subsequent statement was:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Lots of weird stuff here.

Had the player put two hands on the ball at the same time, which I don't believe that he did (by millimeters), that would have been an additional article violation worthy of Durant's scorn, and might have been the first violation in this play depending on how one viewed the cupping with the left hand with accompanying foot movement.

4-15-4-C: The dribble ends when: The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

Like Johnny Carson said, "Weird wild stuff".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The dribble is illegal because it was touched by both hands in between dribbles.

Agree. But it was illegal for, at least, one other reason, with one reason not (barely) being for simultaneously touching the ball with both hands.

Some could have viewed the cupping (holding) while moving his feet as a travel (carry), however this was quite subtle and there was a more obvious violation.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

“slight of hand”

Would it be easier to state which rule, section, and article this young ball handler didn't violate?

Again, thanks crosscountry55 for this very educational and interesting video.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Agree, Raymond is not wrong. I just think a plain reading of 4-15-2 that says “bats into the air” conjures an image of a player popping a ball ten feet into the air over a defender’s head and then going around him/her and touching it again before it comes down, all in an attempt to evade the defender. What it doesn’t conjure up is the “slight of hand” bat that occurred in the OP video. That’s still a “bat into the air” touched again by the hand(s) before the ball contacts the floor, and therefore an illegal dribble.

I guess some of us are implying that maybe 4-15-2 could be written a little better to help the reader envision the scenario.


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Definitely agree the rule should be written better--"dribble ends if the ball is touched by both hands, either simultaneously or separately; dribble ends if the ball is touched twice by the same hand". If someone was implying that before you just explicitly stated it, then they were way too subtle.

I just saw Billy implying their is difference in ruling based upon the ball being touched by both hands simultaneously and both hands separately. I wonder how many illegal dribbles he has allowed based on that differentiation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... difference in ruling based upon the ball being touched by both hands simultaneously and both hands separately.

Different articles. Same ruling. Different rationales. Both illegal. One almost, but didn't, occur in this video.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Different articles. Same ruling. Different rationales. Both illegal. One almost, but didn't, occur in this video.

I asked you why it mattered if it were one or the other that occurred. Don't remember your answer being "it doesn't matter, both result in an illegal dribble".

Again, an example of how your discussions would confuse new officials.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

What are you double checking and why?

I was double checking because if he did execute a simultaneous two-handed switch (which he didn't) that would be additional rationale for a violation here.

Originally Posted by Raymond

I asked you why it mattered if it were one or the other that occurred. Don't remember your answer being "it doesn't matter, both result in an illegal dribble".

Because I was flummoxed (and concentrating on) by whether, or not, the simultaneous two-handed switch had actually occurred, never actually believing it.

Either your posts, or my posts (or both) were misunderstood.

This post really stymied me.

Originally Posted by Raymond

You had to double check to see if he had two hands on the ball at the same time. How did you not see him switching the ball from one hand to the other?

I thought that your post implied (I was wrong) that you believed that there was a hand to hand two-handed simultaneous switch. To which I responded.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Did he touch the ball with two hands at the same time when the ball was behind his back? Sure, if you say so. You'll get no argument from me.

... never actually believing it.

... and it all went downhill after that.

Were it not for your post, this would have been the last you heard from me about two simultaneous hands.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The kid, when going behind his back, almost puts two hands on the ball at the same time (had to double check) ...

... a simple statement that there was lots of weird stuff in the video.

The written word, especially when penned by an amateur like me, can sometimes be misunderstood.

Better to orally discuss something over a couple of adult beverages.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

What do you have?

A) Illegal Dribble
B) Travel
C) Both A & B
D) Nothing

https://sports.yahoo.com/eighth-grad...160413701.html


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1) I have an Illegal Dribble when he went behind his back.

2) I have Kevin Durant as a SCHMUCK for his comments.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

I should probably let sleeping dogs lie, but anybody want to comment on this?

I'm not saying that it was a definite violation, but it was a subtle “slight of hand” move that got my antennae up the first time I spotted it.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Could it have been a travel/carry immediately before he switched hands, that ball sure seemed somewhat cupped (holding) in his left hand while his feet were moving?

Of course, in a real game in real time, if one is not sure, don’t call it, but here we have the video to watch over and over.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I asked you why it mattered if it were one or the other that occurred. Don't remember your answer being "it doesn't matter, both result in an illegal dribble".

Found it.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It doesn't.