Kevin Durant Critique

[crosscountry55]

What do you have?

A) Illegal Dribble
B) Travel
C) Both A & B
D) Nothing

https://sports.yahoo.com/eighth-grad...160413701.html


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[JRutledge]

It is a travel on the last spin. I am not nitpicking a dribble behind the back. This is why the POE on spin moves is highlighted this year.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Carry (illegal dribble) due to holding the ball when he moved it from left hand to right hand without a dribble behind his back, and subsequently starting a second illegal dribble.

[Raymond]

He transfers the ball from his left hand to his right hand in between dribbles. I don't even need to get to the spin move.

It's not a carry, it's not palming. It's an illegal dribble that's referred to on the playground as a double dribble.

Carrying and palming both refer to illegal plays where the same hand is used to dribble.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It's not a carry, it's not palming. It's an illegal dribble that's referred to on the playground as a double dribble. Carrying and palming both refer to illegal plays where the same hand is used to dribble.

Yeah, I can go along with with a one handed description even though the rulebook says something about two hands.

4-15-4-B: The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

Of course, non-officials don't realize that carrying/palming is not an actual rule violation, it's either a travel, or an illegal (double) dribble, even though carrying/palming has it's own signal.

From the Misunderstood List: Palming, or carrying, is when the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or illegally dribbles a second time.

IAABO (never heard it from the NFHS), in one of its Make the Call videos, takes this one step further (a step too far in my opinion) by differentiating between palming and carrying; one, carrying, being a travel; and the other, palming, being an illegal (double) dribble. Up until seeing the video, I had never heard of such a differentiation.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

IAABO International Play Commentary: There is a distinct difference between palming and carrying. Palming occurs when a dribbler can maintain their pivot foot, allows the ball to come to rest, and then completes a second dribble. This is an illegal dribble, commonly referred to as a double dribble. Carrying occurs when the ball comes to rest while the dribbler moves the pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits. This violation is covered within the traveling rule.

The kid, when going behind his back, almost puts two hands on the ball at the same time (had to double check). Lots of weird stuff here. Thanks crosscountry55.

[Raymond]

I noticed immediately him putting the ball from his left hand to his right hand. I don't see how anybody could miss that.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I noticed immediately him putting the ball from his left hand to his right hand. I don't see how anybody could miss that.

Little Stevie Wonder could have made this call with his eyes closed.

Could it have been a travel/carry immediately before he switched hands, that ball sure seemed somewhat cupped (holding) in his left hand while his feet were moving?

Maybe it was a two person game, with the trail across the basketline on the other side of the court?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Little Stevie Wonder could have made this call with his eyes closed.

Could it have been a travel/carry immediately before he switched hands, that ball sure seemed somewhat cupped (holding) in his left hand while his feet were moving?

Maybe it was a two person game, with the trail across the basketline on the other side of the court?

You didn't see it on a video. You had to double check to see if he had two hands on the ball at the same time. How did you not see him switching the ball from one hand to the other?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You didn't see it on a video ... How did you not see him switching the ball from one hand to the other?

Did he touch the ball with two hands at the same time when the ball was behind his back? Sure, if you say so. You'll get no argument from me. I was unsure because I thought I spotted a few millimeters of separation space during a hand switching self "pass", or maybe it was an actual handoff. Maybe your monitor is better than my small ten year old monitor.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Did he touch the ball with two hands at the same time when the ball was behind his back? Sure, if you say so. You'll get no argument from me. I was unsure because I thought I spotted a few millimeters of separation space during a hand switching self "pass", or maybe it was an actual handoff. Maybe your monitor is better than my small ten year old monitor.

What does it matter if he touched it with both hands at the same time or passed it from one hand to the other.

He had already dribbled and he OBVIOUSLY touched the ball with both hands prior to dribbling again. Why is touching it at the same time or separately relevant? Why do you bring stuff into the conversation that means nothing at all?

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[Raymond]

"The kid, when going behind his back, almost puts two hands on the ball at the same time (had to double check)."

What are you double checking and why? Your statement would lead a new, unknowing official to think it makes a difference whether it was touched by both hands at the same time or separately?

This is you causing unnecessary confusion.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

"The kid, when going behind his back, almost puts two hands on the ball at the same time (had to double check)."

Context is important. My subsequent statement was:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Lots of weird stuff here.

Had the player put two hands on the ball at the same time, which I don't believe that he did (by millimeters), that would have been an additional article violation worthy of Durant's scorn, and might have been the first violation in this play depending on how one viewed the cupping with the left hand with accompanying foot movement.

4-15-4-C: The dribble ends when: The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

Like Johnny Carson said, "Weird wild stuff".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The dribble is illegal because it was touched by both hands in between dribbles.

Agree. But it was illegal for, at least, one other reason, with one reason not (barely) being for simultaneously touching the ball with both hands.

Some could have viewed the cupping (holding) while moving his feet as a travel (carry), however this was quite subtle and there was a more obvious violation.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

“slight of hand”

Would it be easier to state which rule, section, and article this young ball handler didn't violate?

Again, thanks crosscountry55 for this very educational and interesting video.

[crosscountry55]

Hate to say it Raymond, but 4-15-4c specifies simultaneity is required for the dribble to be considered ended:

ART. 4 ... The dribble ends when:

a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to lose control.

e. The ball becomes dead.

Probably where this is an illegal dribble actually comes from 4-15-2:

ART. 2 ... During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

I think there were a few millimeters of separation. It may have been the shortest “bat” in basketball history.

Either way, an illegal dribble. Just a matter of which section of the article applies.


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[Raymond]

The dribble is illegal because it was touched by both hands in between dribbles. You cannot touch the ball with both hands either simultaneously or separately in between dribbles. You can't even touch it twice with the same hand. What I am saying is part is part of your post. You pointed it out. So how am I wrong?

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