The Most Misunderstood NFHS Basketball Rules ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In my opinion, a airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

This is what I'm calling unless there's clear information against it.

Don't underestimate the rules knowledge and experience of Raymond and Camron Rust. It would be a big mistake to ignore either of them.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Don't underestimate the rules knowledge and experience of Raymond and Camron Rust.

It has nothing to do with that, it goes to the fact I can't point to a case play or rule to PROVE it to a coach.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It has nothing to do with that, it goes to the fact I can't point to a case play or rule to PROVE it to a coach.

You've got proof either way.

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You've got proof either way.



Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.



Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

So why is the play under question?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

So why is the play under question?

Because we have two different interpretations.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, unintentionally drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because we have two different interpretations.

And from respected officials. That's my issue.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

And from respected officials.

When both Raymond and Camron Rust disagree with me, I have to take pause.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You've got proof either way.

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

The problem is that there is no rule that says anything about a player always being able to pick up a fumble but there is a rule that says a player only has two options once he/she jumps.

This is not unlike the situation where a player throws the ball off his/her own backboard....it is treated as if it were a try for most purposes even though it actually isn't a try since the player wasn't actually trying to throw the ball into the basket.

Consider also the case where a player lying on the floor sits the ball down, gets up while not holding the ball, then picks up the ball. This is considered a travel. Why? It is deemed that the player is circumventing the intended rules.

The fumble on a try is essentially the same thing. Players will make it appear to be a fumble to circumvent the rules once they go airborne and find they have nowhere to go. Once they jump, they have two options by rule: pass or shoot. Anything else is considered a de facto dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The problem is that there is no rule that says anything about a player always being able to pick up a fumble but there is a rule that says a player only has two options once he/she jumps. This is not unlike the situation where a player throws the ball off his/her own backboard....it is treated as if it were a try for most purposes even though it actually isn't a try since the player wasn't actually trying to throw the ball into the basket. Consider also the case where a player lying on the floor sits the ball down, gets up while not holding the ball, then picks up the ball. This is considered a travel. Why? It is deemed that the player is circumventing the intended rules. The fumble on a try is essentially the same thing. Players will make it appear to be a fumble to circumvent the rules once they go airborne and find they have nowhere to go. Once they jump, they have two options by rule: pass or shoot. Anything else is considered a de facto dribble.

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Great points (as was your earlier post) and great examples. My list existed for almost fifteen years without this situation. It was a very recent addition after a video interpretation by IAABO (not the NFHS). While Camron Rust, Raymond, and others may be right, it's still not a 100% fact in my mind, so I'm leaving it off the list, which doesn't mean the IAABO interpretation (and Camron Rust and Raymond) is wrong, it just means that it's not on my list, as many rules and interpretations are not on my list (though it's quite lengthy, probably too lengthy).

If this situation appears on a written exam, I take a chance on an incorrect answer of calling picking up this fumbled try a legal play. If this situation happens in a real game in real time, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "Fumble" (not "He dropped it"), I'll pass on a whistle, and if anybody complains, I'll confidently explain "It was a fumble", and unless it was the final play of a tied game, my call will probably be forgotten.

Camron Rust: In your great, well written, rational post, why did you call it a de facto dribble? Why not just "dribble"? De facto means being in effect though not formally recognized. So, is it a formally recognized dribble, or is it not a formally recognized dribble? By choosing the phrase "de facto" are you consciously, or unconsciously admitting that this situation may be a "gap" or "blind spot" in the rules, as posted by Raymond earlier?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Great points (as was your earlier post) and great examples. My list existed for almost fifteen years without this situation. It was a very recent addition after a video interpretation by IAABO (not the NFHS). While Camron Rust, Raymond, and others may be right, it's still not a 100% fact in my mind, so I'm leaving it off the list, which doesn't mean the IAABO interpretation (and Camron Rust and Raymond) is wrong, it just means that it's not on my list, as many rules and interpretations are not on my list (though it's quite lengthy, probably too lengthy).

If this situation appears on a written exam, I take a chance on an incorrect answer of calling picking up this fumbled try a legal play. If this situation happens in a real game in real time, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "Fumble" (not "He dropped it"), I'll pass on a whistle, and if anybody complains, I'll confidently explain "It was a fumble", and unless it was the final play of a tied game, my call will probably be forgotten.

Camron Rust: In your great, well written, rational post, why did you call it a de facto dribble? Why not just "dribble"? De facto means being in effect though not formally recognized. So, is it a formally recognized dribble, or is it not a formally recognized dribble? By choosing the phrase "de facto" are you consciously, or unconsciously admitting that this situation may be a "gap" or "blind spot" in the rules, as posted by Raymond earlier?

I called it a de facto dribble because it isn't technically a dribble but is treated as if it were one....the same as throwing the ball isn't a try but is treated as if it were a try in most respects. Another one...a shooter who has released the ball and crashes into a legal defender is called for a player control foul even though they don't actually have player control at that point. In fact, this last one might be the best comparison...a player that jumps in an attempt to shoot is treated as if they have player control in most respects until they land....thus fumbling doesn't get them out of the traveling rule any more than releasing the ball on a shot gets them out of player control foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... fumbling doesn't get them out of the traveling rule any more than releasing the ball on a shot gets them out of player control foul.

Brilliant, but still not on my list.

Thanks for your time and effort. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this. Much appreciated. It wasn't in vain. You haven't completely changed my mind, but have left me scratching my head.

I wish the NFHS had a caseplay with a fumble.

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. RULING: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.