The Most Misunderstood NFHS Basketball Rules ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why would they be the same when one is literally done on purpose and the other is not?

I'm not saying this, I believe that Raymond is saying this.

In my opinion, an airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not saying this, I believe that Raymond is saying this.



In my opinion, a airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

This is what I'm calling unless there's clear information against it.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In my opinion, a airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

This is what I'm calling unless there's clear information against it.

Don't underestimate the rules knowledge and experience of Raymond and Camron Rust. It would be a big mistake to ignore either of them.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Don't underestimate the rules knowledge and experience of Raymond and Camron Rust.

It has nothing to do with that, it goes to the fact I can't point to a case play or rule to PROVE it to a coach.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It has nothing to do with that, it goes to the fact I can't point to a case play or rule to PROVE it to a coach.

You've got proof either way.

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You've got proof either way.



Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.



Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

So why is the play under question?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

So why is the play under question?

Because we have two different interpretations.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, unintentionally drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You've got proof either way.

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

The problem is that there is no rule that says anything about a player always being able to pick up a fumble but there is a rule that says a player only has two options once he/she jumps.

This is not unlike the situation where a player throws the ball off his/her own backboard....it is treated as if it were a try for most purposes even though it actually isn't a try since the player wasn't actually trying to throw the ball into the basket.

Consider also the case where a player lying on the floor sits the ball down, gets up while not holding the ball, then picks up the ball. This is considered a travel. Why? It is deemed that the player is circumventing the intended rules.

The fumble on a try is essentially the same thing. Players will make it appear to be a fumble to circumvent the rules once they go airborne and find they have nowhere to go. Once they jump, they have two options by rule: pass or shoot. Anything else is considered a de facto dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The problem is that there is no rule that says anything about a player always being able to pick up a fumble but there is a rule that says a player only has two options once he/she jumps. This is not unlike the situation where a player throws the ball off his/her own backboard....it is treated as if it were a try for most purposes even though it actually isn't a try since the player wasn't actually trying to throw the ball into the basket. Consider also the case where a player lying on the floor sits the ball down, gets up while not holding the ball, then picks up the ball. This is considered a travel. Why? It is deemed that the player is circumventing the intended rules. The fumble on a try is essentially the same thing. Players will make it appear to be a fumble to circumvent the rules once they go airborne and find they have nowhere to go. Once they jump, they have two options by rule: pass or shoot. Anything else is considered a de facto dribble.

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Great points (as was your earlier post) and great examples. My list existed for almost fifteen years without this situation. It was a very recent addition after a video interpretation by IAABO (not the NFHS). While Camron Rust, Raymond, and others may be right, it's still not a 100% fact in my mind, so I'm leaving it off the list, which doesn't mean the IAABO interpretation (and Camron Rust and Raymond) is wrong, it just means that it's not on my list, as many rules and interpretations are not on my list (though it's quite lengthy, probably too lengthy).

If this situation appears on a written exam, I take a chance on an incorrect answer of calling picking up this fumbled try a legal play. If this situation happens in a real game in real time, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "Fumble" (not "He dropped it"), I'll pass on a whistle, and if anybody complains, I'll confidently explain "It was a fumble", and unless it was the final play of a tied game, my call will probably be forgotten.

Camron Rust: In your great, well written, rational post, why did you call it a de facto dribble? Why not just "dribble"? De facto means being in effect though not formally recognized. So, is it a formally recognized dribble, or is it not a formally recognized dribble? By choosing the phrase "de facto" are you consciously, or unconsciously admitting that this situation may be a "gap" or "blind spot" in the rules, as posted by Raymond earlier?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not saying this, I believe that Raymond is saying this.

In my opinion, a airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

My contention is that you do not have to pick up this part at all. If you have not started a dribble, this is illegal the minute you release the ball. If a player did a split foot travel we would not wait until they picked up the ball again.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My contention is that you do not have to pick up this part at all. If you have not started a dribble, this is illegal the minute you release the ball.

By a literal interpretation of the rule, JRutledge is 100% correct. If one deems it to be the start of a dribble, it is a dribble. If one deems it to be the start of a bounce pass, it is a pass.

However, I believe that both JRutledge and I are on the same page in terms of the illegality of dropping the ball intentionally, and the legality of unintentionally fumbling the ball and recovering it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If a player did a split foot travel we would not wait until they picked up the ball again.

Note: Took me some time to figure out what a split foot travel is, as we have never used that term here in my little corner of Connecticut.

Again, JRutledge is 100% correct in his literal interpretation of the rule. By the time the play registers in my mind and I sound my whistle the ball has usually bounced off the floor and back into the player's hand. Could it have been the start of a bounce pass, sure, I guess, but JRutledge is right in his contention that experienced officials have enough good judgment to differentiate between the start of a bounce pass and the start of a dribble. Context is everything. If I'm unsure, I can wait a second and be sure.