jumper

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Yes. Throw-in at the spot nearest to the violation, unless the ball is inbounded in the frontcourt under NCAAM or NCAAW rules. In that case, the nearest of 4 spots will be used. The shot clock will remain at 30 for NCAA play or 24 for NBA play, because a violation resets the shot clock to 20/14 or keeps the shot clock at the current value, whichever is greater. Since no team has control, the shot clock will not have started. Otherwise, the ball will go to White at the nearest spot.

NCAA-M:

That applies if the offensive team RETAINS possession following a defensive foul or violation in the front court or a defensive violation in the back court. If a team gains possession in their FC following a foul or violation, the shot clock is set to 20 seconds, if in the BC it is set to 30.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

That applies if the offensive team RETAINS possession following a defensive foul or violation in the front court or a defensive violation in the back court. If a team gains possession in their FC following a foul or violation, the shot clock is set to 20 seconds, if in the BC it is set to 30.

Thanks for reminding me why I never wanted to understand NCAA basketball rules.

Also, rumor has it that Connecticut will go with a NFHS approved shot clock for all high school games (freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as early as next year. Some wanted it rushed as early as this year.

I'm perplexed.

Frugal principals, athletic directors, and coaches in Connecticut have stymied three person varsity (never even considering subvarsity) games for years, something that would really improve Connecticut high school basketball in every varsity game, yet the same principals, athletic directors, and coaches are jumping on the bandwagon for the chance to have high school shot clocks, something that would only improve a handful of games each season, and yet still be costly, originally for the equipment, and then ongoing for shot clock operators at the table.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Also, rumor has it that Connecticut will go with a NFHS approved shot clock for all high school games (freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as early as next year. Some wanted it rushed as early as this year.

I'm perplexed.

Frugal principals, athletic directors, and coaches have stymied three person varsity games for years, something that would really improve Connecticut high school basketball in every varsity game, yet the same principals, athletic directors, and coaches are jumping on the bandwagon for the chance to have high school shot clocks, something that would only improve a handful of games each season, and yet still be costly, originally for the equipment, and then ongoing for shot clock operators at the table.

Off-topic and sure to be revisited in future threads, but I wholly agree with this.

In our state (VA) clinic this year, it was pointed out that average possession time was only 14 seconds. HS players don’t care about offensive sets, they just want to go score! Furthermore, coaches were evenly split on the shot clock from state survey data, so with no clear mandate, VA will not be adopting it anytime soon.

I think that’s the right approach. VA took the “coolness factor” and emotion out of the equation and ended up with a rational decision.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

“coolness factor”

I never realized it, but this may part of the equation. Probably shouldn't be, but it may be.

It's nowhere near to the level of an answer in search of a problem because there are certainly some valid reasons for shot clocks.

However, I wonder how often stakeholders in the game say, "Tonight's high school game could really use, and would be a lot better, with a shot clock".

Not as a general comment, but as a comment about that specific game with those two teams that night.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for reminding me why I never wanted to understand NCAA basketball rules.

Also, rumor has it that Connecticut will go with a NFHS approved shot clock for all high school games (freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as early as next year. Some wanted it rushed as early as this year.

I'm perplexed.

Frugal principals, athletic directors, and coaches have stymied three person varsity games for years, something that would really improve Connecticut high school basketball in every varsity game, yet the same principals, athletic directors, and coaches are jumping on the bandwagon for the chance to have high school shot clocks, something that would only improve a handful of games each season, and yet still be costly, originally for the equipment, and then ongoing for shot clock operators at the table.

If the schools create more responsibility for the officials by adding a shot clock, then the officials should seek greater compensation per game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

NCAA-M:

That applies if the offensive team RETAINS possession following a defensive foul or violation in the front court or a defensive violation in the back court. If a team gains possession in their FC following a foul or violation, the shot clock is set to 20 seconds, if in the BC it is set to 30.


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Same for NCAAW, except that kick, fist, thought the basket from below are the only violations to which this applies.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Raymond

NCAA-M:

That applies if the offensive team RETAINS possession following a defensive foul or violation in the front court or a defensive violation in the back court. If a team gains possession in their FC following a foul or violation, the shot clock is set to 20 seconds, if in the BC it is set to 30.


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That makes more sense. If in the frontcourt, White gets the ball with 20/14 seconds on the shot clock from one of the 4 designated spots (NCAAM) or at the nearest spot (NCAAW/NBA). If in the backcourt, White gets the ball at the nearest spot with the shot clock at 30/24.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That makes more sense. If in the frontcourt, White gets the ball with 20/14 seconds on the shot clock from one of the 4 designated spots (NCAAM) or at the nearest spot (NCAAW/NBA). If in the backcourt, White gets the ball at the nearest spot with the shot clock at 30/24.

That is NOT true in the OP ( a jump ball violation) for NCAAW

[ilyazhito]

The shot clock only resets to 20 on an offensive rebound or foul/violation in the frontcourt under 20 in NCAAW. Are you saying that if the opponents get possession in the frontcourt under NCAAW rules, it is a 30-second reset?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The shot clock only resets to 20 on an offensive rebound or foul/violation in the frontcourt under 20 in NCAAW. Are you saying that if the opponents get possession in the frontcourt under NCAAW rules, it is a 30-second reset?

I'm saying that in the OP the shot clock was never running -- it should still be at 30 (and if not, it's a timer's error). So, it will remain at 30 no matter whether B inbounds the ball adjacent to the front court or to the back court.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm saying that in the OP the shot clock was never running -- it should still be at 30 (and if not, it's a timer's error). So, it will remain at 30 no matter whether B inbounds the ball adjacent to the front court or to the back court.

That's what I originally said. Since the shot clock never ran, it would make sense that the shot clock stays where it is at. I'll have to re-read both men's and women's rulebooks and see if Raymond is right as it specifically relates to the men's game. Stuff like this makes me wish that the men's and women's committees would get together and unify the shot clock rules. They already have the same rule for offensive rebounds and frontcourt fouls, so why not make everything else consistent.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That's what I originally said. Since the shot clock never ran, it would make sense that the shot clock stays where it is at. I'll have to re-read both men's and women's rulebooks and see if Raymond is right as it specifically relates to the men's game. Stuff like this makes me wish that the men's and women's committees would get together and unify the shot clock rules. They already have the same rule for offensive rebounds and frontcourt fouls, so why not make everything else consistent.

NCAA-Men's:
RULE 2 / OFFICIALS AND THEIR DUTIES
Section 11. Duties of Shot-Clock Operator
The shot-clock operator shall:
Art. 6. Stopping and resetting the shot clock:
d. Reset to 20 seconds when the following occurs:
8. During a jump ball, one team causes the ball to be out of bounds and the other team is awarded the ball for a throw-in in the frontcourt.

Causing the ball to go OOB on the jump ball would mean the shot clock never started, yet we still set it to 20 seconds if the throw-in is adjacent to the FC.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That's what I originally said. Since the shot clock never ran, it would make sense that the shot clock stays where it is at. I'll have to re-read both men's and women's rulebooks and see if Raymond is right as it specifically relates to the men's game. Stuff like this makes me wish that the men's and women's committees would get together and unify the shot clock rules. They already have the same rule for offensive rebounds and frontcourt fouls, so why not make everything else consistent.

They are 2 separate entities. It doesn't matter if the rules are the same or not because there are Men's staffs and there Women's staffs. With the very rare exception, officials either work one side or the other. Those few who do work both sides don't do so for the same conference and they have put the burden upon themselves to master 2 sets of rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Stuff like this makes me wish that the men's and women's committees would get together and unify the shot clock rules. They already have the same rule for offensive rebounds and frontcourt fouls, so why not make everything else consistent.

They tried that and it was a disaster. Women's basketball spent a lot of time trying to be relevant with different rules and wanted things to be done differently. Let us face it, women and men do not play basketball the same. One game is largely above the ring and the other is below the ring more than high school boys. So no you will not have the same committees when one sport makes over a billion dollars for their tournament and the other loses money every year in their tournament. The main reason for example Men's basketball does not go to quarters, because Men's basketball would lose a media timeout or two doing such a thing. The committees need to state separate so they can effectively address the trends in each game appropriately. I started working Women's college ball then turned to Men's college where I wanted to be. I never worked consistently both at the same time and am glad I did not have to. Hard enough to keep track of NF and NCAA Rules for one code. Just the same reason you do not see officials that get to the NBA go through the Men's college ranks as a standard.

Peace