Fun With An Off The Ball Foul …

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Would you consider a double personal foul, maybe not for the initial contact, but for the "scrum" aftermath?

Not if I saw it clearly as I did on this video. Again who caused the situation, the white player. So because of that I would basically ignore the actions of the black player in this case. Similar to a "hook and hold" in a college game (and this was a college game it appears).

Peace

[JRutledge]

Billy,

The usage of the term "displacement" is the highlight that nothing influenced the movement or change the direction of the white player (Kind of like saying in the other video the foul was "common" or "normal.") I realize that is not the only reason you call a foul here, but to me the black player did not get a chance to do anything that would warrant a foul. Touching is not a foul. You have to do something as you stated to warrant a foul and the white player was being savvy to try to make it looked like he was being pushed or held in some way.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... that nothing influenced the movement or change the direction of the white player ...

Marginal? Yes. I think that we can agree on that.

But Blue #2's intentionally and illegally extended arm into White #24"s chest kept White #24 three feet farther away from the basket and a possible rebound. This gave a much shorter Blue #2, with an inside position, a possible tremendous rebounding advantage over a much taller White #24.

Of course, White #24 didn't do himself any favors by intentionally and illegally holding on to Blue #2's intentionally and illegally extended arm, creating an ugly "scrum" situation.

And, of course, another problem is that the rebound didn't end up coming that way, so neither player really benefited from any illegal contact advantage.

Maybe the three officials were correct to play on.

Nice video. Lots to discuss and learn.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Marginal? Yes. I think that we can agree on that.

But Blue #2's intentionally and illegally extended arm into White #24"s chest kept White #24 three feet farther away from the basket and a possible rebound. This gave a much shorter Blue #2, with an inside position, a possible tremendous rebounding advantage over a much taller White #24.

Of course, White #24 didn't do himself any favors by intentionally and illegally holding on to Blue #2's intentionally and illegally extended arm, creating an ugly "scrum" situation.

And, of course, another problem is that the rebound didn't end up coming that way, so neither player really benefited from any illegal contact advantage.

Maybe the three officials were correct to play on.

Nice video. Lots to discuss and learn.

I did not say the Blue player did not stick his arm out. He did, but that does not mean the contact started with him either. Again, the White player saw the arm and IMO used to to look like he was being pushed when he really was not.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... stick his arm out. He did, but that does not mean the contact started with him either.

Look at the video again, "First Blood" was Blue #2 intentionally and illegally extending an arm into White #24"s chest, which was followed almost immediately (split second) by White #24 intentionally and illegally latching onto Blue #2's extended arm.

I'm beginning to like a personal double foul more and more every time I watch the video.

[BillyMac]

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...Xx1LfmXp9e.mp4

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This should be ruled a double foul.

In situations like this, the goal of officials is ty to get the first foul and penalize accordingly. Deciding on what that is was no easy task. The results among respondents are as follows: 26.1% charged Blue 2; 34.8% charged White 24; 26.6% charged double foul. A solid case could be made for any of these responses.

As the play develops, it appears the defender; Blue #2, extends his right arm into the torso on White #24. As this occurs, white #24 grabs the arm of Blue #2. Each of these actions is illegal and warrants a foul.

However, regardless of who fouled when. A key teaching point of this play is the actions of white #24. His approach to the contact would fall into the category of a "fool the official" play. After he grabs the arm of his opponent, he flails his arms upward and embellishes the contact. Officials should be aware that some players will "hook and hold" their opponent and then try to act as if fouled.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: The foul is on White No. 24 35%. This should be ruled a double foul 26%. The foul is on Blue No. 2 26% (including me). There is no foul on this play 13%.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm beginning to like a personal double foul more and more every time I watch the video.

[Kansas Ref]

That greater than 10% of the respondents (who have been trained in the same IABO way) viewed this as a "play on" type of action is interesting; leading one to infer that this series of actions wasn't really all that "foul-worthy" to begin with.
However, do you guys ever call a foul on a player for feigning a foul? I know its a foul in the NF rule book (chapter and verse: 10.?.?). But honestly don't think it s ever called, agreeably it would require temerity to do so.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... The blue player sticks his arm out for sure, but the white player starts the sequence by trying to swim the player.

Without Blue #2's arm stuck on his chest, maybe White #24 doesn't latch on to it?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... The foul is on White No. 24 35%.

35% (a plurality) of the IAABO members that commented on the video agreed with JRutledge.

Kansas Ref: I see your five dollar word, temerity, and raise you another five dollar word, plurality.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Look at the video again, "First Blood" was Blue #2 intentionally and illegally extending an arm into White #24"s chest, which was followed almost immediately (split second) by White #24 intentionally and illegally latching onto Blue #2's extended arm.

I'm beginning to like a personal double foul more and more every time I watch the video.

I saw the video and know what I am looking for. I break down a lot of video, more than most. I see the action by the white player first. The blue player sticks his arm out for sure, but the white player starts the sequence by trying to swim the player. Again that is what I see and it is again a "fool the referee" type play. Touching is not a foul. It is displacing or holding or directing an opponent on some level. That did not take place IMO and I do not like the position to call a double foul here. Get the first action.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Similar to a "hook and hold" in a college game.

I've heard you Forum college guys use this term before. This certainly turned out to be a hook 'em and hold 'em situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've heard you Forum college guys use this term before. This certainly turned out to be a hook 'em and hold 'em situation.

Well, the "hook and hold" is a type of Flagrant foul at the college level. And if you are so inclined to have a monitor for review, it can be ruled that way based on the video. We do not have such a mandate to call these Intentional or Flagrant here, but they are something we can consider under our rules, just not specifically addressed the same way. It is pretty automatic if you deem a player does a "hook and hold" move at the college level. Without the monitor, we have to make the determination on our own when we see it.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... if you are so inclined to have a monitor for review ...

The only monitors I have in my mid-afternoon middle school games are the cell phone video cameras in the hands of adoring grandmothers.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The only monitors I have in my mid-afternoon middle school games are the cell phone video cameras in the hands of adoring grandmothers.

And, of course, the cell phone video cameras in the hands of hot, single Moms. I tell them that if they show me their's, I'll show them mine.

Etchings, that is.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The only monitors I have in my mid-afternoon middle school games are the cell phone video cameras in the hands of adoring grandmothers.

I do not have many games with one, but it is allowed and the schools have to put up the equipment to make that happen. I had one last year at one of my D2 contests (doubleheader). Did not know until the second game, but we had one and used it for a particular type of foul situation.

Peace