contacting fair ball while in foul ball territory

[Little Jimmy]

This should be simple, but I can't find a clear rule in the Fed book. Any rule set would be good.

R1 on first. B1 hits fly ball destined to be a homerun. F7 is able to jump and knock the ball down in the field of play but then falls over and beyond temporary fence. Fence pops back up to a near vertical position. F7, while standing behind the fence, reaches over and picks up ball that is laying in fair territory and throws it in. Dead ball, but what about the base awards?

Fed dead ball table doesn't address this scenario, unless I'm missing something. 5-1-1i deals with "catch and carry" and 8-4-3k speaks of intentionally carrying, etc.

I'm assuming it's a one or two base award, but where's the reference? What am I missing?

[Manny A]

5-1-1i subparagraph "b" states, "If a player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields, or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed."

Seems to me your F7 fielded the ball while in DBT when she picked it up while on the other side of the temporary fence. Since she did not intentionally carry, kick, etc. etc., then I would use 8-4-3i and award one base from the moment she handled the ball.

[Little Jimmy]

I somehow missed the word "fields". My fault. One base award. But now after further reading, some 5-1-1 i notes speak of a penalty or lack of, where note b says " no play is allowed". Wording could be more clear.

[MD Longhorn]

Manny is correct.

And PLEASE differentiate between DEAD ball territory (as mentioned in your post) and FOUL ball territory (as used in the subject of the post).

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

5-1-1i subparagraph "b" states, "If a player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields, or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed."

Seems to me your F7 fielded the ball while in DBT when she picked it up while on the other side of the temporary fence. Since she did not intentionally carry, kick, etc. etc., then I would use 8-4-3i and award one base from the moment she handled the ball.

How is fielding not intentional?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

5-1-1i subparagraph "b" states, "If a player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields, or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed."

Seems to me your F7 fielded the ball while in DBT when she picked it up while on the other side of the temporary fence. Since she did not intentionally carry, kick, etc. etc., then I would use 8-4-3i and award one base from the moment she handled the ball.

She was in dead ball territory, she intentionally reached over and picked up a live ball, making it dead.
I would rule that intentional.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

She was in dead ball territory, she intentionally reached over and picked up a live ball, making it dead.
I would rule that intentional.

Yeah, but her intent wasn't malicious.

There's a similar situation where a fielder enters a dugout to tag a runner. She certainly does that intentionally, but in the spirit of what the rule really wants to punish, this is not considered intentionally carrying the ball into DBT.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Yeah, but her intent wasn't malicious.

How do you know? Maybe she WAS trying to kill the play!

In the specific exception cited, the defense was attempting to tag a runner, not take the ball out of play.

[Little Jimmy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Manny is correct.

And PLEASE differentiate between DEAD ball territory (as mentioned in your post) and [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]FOUL[/COLOR] ball territory (as used in the subject of the post).

Agreed about the mis-wording. My fault. I tried to edit the subject title, but wasn't able to.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How do you know? Maybe she WAS trying to kill the play!

I doubt it, especially since the OP stated that F7 picked up the ball and then threw it in. Now, if she had picked it up and just held onto it, I would judge otherwise.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Yeah, but her intent wasn't malicious.

There's a similar situation where a fielder enters a dugout to tag a runner. She certainly does that intentionally, but in the spirit of what the rule really wants to punish, this is not considered intentionally carrying the ball into DBT.

Malicious is not the word I would use, but the way I am reading this, she certainly can be preventing a runner from getting more than one base by reaching over the fence and killing the ball rather than taking the time to hop the fence (or let another fielder get the ball and throw it in.

Let's say the B/R has past 2nd when the fielder recovers and reaches over the fence for the ball. Ruling this as a catch and carry would hold her at 3rd base instead of scoring (which would probably be the outcome if the fielder had to hop back over the fence or if F8 had to get the ball.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Let's say the B/R has past 2nd when the fielder recovers and reaches over the fence for the ball. Ruling this as a catch and carry would hold her at 3rd base instead of scoring (which would probably be the outcome if the fielder had to hop back over the fence or if F8 had to get the ball.

Perhaps. Or maybe the BR would have been gunned at home for an out. It seems the one-base award would be the only equitable thing here.

[EsqUmp]

Intentionally is, and has been for at least 20 years, been interpreted to mean that the player's actions were taken for the purpose of creating a dead ball. The case play is when the catcher runs after a batter-runner on an uncaught third strike and enters the dugout to tag the batter-runner (not realizing that she is out for going into the dugout). Yes, she intentionally ran into the dugout. No, she did not intentionally enter the dugout for creating a dead ball. Use common sense when interpreting intent. People say you can't judge intent. I say that's bullshit as normal every day people do it thousands of times a day on jury duty.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

5-1-1i subparagraph "b" states, "If a player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields, or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed."

Seems to me your F7 fielded the ball while in DBT when she picked it up while on the other side of the temporary fence. Since she did not intentionally carry, kick, etc. etc., then I would use 8-4-3i and award one base from the moment she handled the ball.

I think this answered all the questions, especially given the OP saying "picks up ball that is laying in fair territory and throws it in".

There is a difference between intentionally doing something (almost everything we do) and doing something with intent to violate a rule or in a rule sense.

It is similar to the INT wording of active, as oppose to intentional. Several ENGLISH WORDS cause confusion with RULE WORDS; e.g., appeal, interfere, intentional, foul tip, protest, etc. and we should not let that affect a discussion or more importantly a ruling.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Intentionally is, and has been for at least 20 years, been interpreted to mean that the player's actions were taken for the purpose of creating a dead ball.

Yeah, that's what I meant when I used the word "malicious", which I agree was a poor choice. It sounded better than saying, "Yeah, but her intent wasn't intentional."