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Old Wed Sep 01, 2021, 03:52pm
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Fun With Continuous Motion …

IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...p8ZGXuCg%3D%3D

Should this goal count? Was the continuous motion rule properly applied to this play? The official rules the ball handler was in the act of shooting when the foul occurred in the lane and awards the goal. Was this an accurate ruling?

Two choices: This is an accurate ruling. This ruling is inaccurate.

My comment: This is an accurate ruling. The ball does not become dead until the try or tap for field goal ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when a foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for field goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.
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Old Wed Sep 01, 2021, 04:03pm
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Good Spectatorship ...

Nice group of polite, not unruly fans in the far side bleachers.

I'm definitely not the best looking guy in the world, but those cheerleaders on the floor look like a pack of dogs.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Sep 01, 2021 at 04:14pm.
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Old Wed Sep 01, 2021, 04:06pm
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Cadence Whistle ...

Would have liked to have heard a cadence whistle from the Trail, waiting to see if the Lead had it (which he did).

I can almost hear the Black Team coach saying, "How can you call that from here?".
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Old Wed Sep 01, 2021, 04:12pm
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Count the basket.

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Old Wed Sep 01, 2021, 05:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Would have liked to have heard a cadence whistle from the Trail, waiting to see if the Lead had it (which he did).

I can almost hear the Black Team coach saying, "How can you call that from here?".
I know what you're saying, but, consider that it was the primary defender on a drive from the T's primary and the foul occurred just below the FT line. There are a lot of places that have that as the T's call first (take the primary defender on the drive from your primary all the way to the basket) and the L's second.
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Old Wed Sep 01, 2021, 06:39pm
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Lead Takes The Call ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... consider that it was the primary defender on a drive from the T's primary and the foul occurred just below the FT line. There are a lot of places that have that as the T's call first (take the primary defender on the drive from your primary all the way to the basket) and the L's second.
Great explanation Camron Rust. Thanks.

I was forgetting that I was in Rome. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we have a forty-plus year old local custom that when a double whistle occurs in specific situations like this, the Trail drops his fist, and the Lead takes the call. It a part of everybody's pregame, even pregames that only go slightly beyond, "Good eye contact", and, "Don't screw up". We've always been trained that way, from the cradle to the grave.

Even though it's probably not fully "kosher" by NFHS (or IAABO) mechanics, it seems to work, no "blarges" in my games, or in games I've observed, in forty-plus years.

Of course, once again, as usual, as always, when in Rome ...
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Sep 01, 2021 at 06:42pm.
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Old Thu Sep 02, 2021, 08:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I know what you're saying, but, consider that it was the primary defender on a drive from the T's primary and the foul occurred just below the FT line. There are a lot of places that have that as the T's call first (take the primary defender on the drive from your primary all the way to the basket) and the L's second.
Connected defender is the term I am most familiar with. The trail does not look good on this play. Run up the court, don't walk. The non-verbal shrugging conversation with the coach after the play does not instill confidence. Count the basket for the original question.

Last edited by sdoebler; Thu Sep 02, 2021 at 08:13am. Reason: spelling
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Old Thu Sep 02, 2021, 09:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Connected defender is the term I am most familiar with. The trail does not look good on this play. Run up the court, don't walk. The non-verbal shrugging conversation with the coach after the play does not instill confidence. Count the basket for the original question.
Looks like the ballhandler was walking up the court until he got past the division line. I think the Trail was in a good position to stay connected to the play. I think it doesn't look good for him to be unaware that the Lead had picked up the play and also had a whistle.
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Old Thu Sep 02, 2021, 11:06am
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Count it.
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Old Thu Sep 02, 2021, 07:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Connected defender is the term I am most familiar with. The trail does not look good on this play. Run up the court, don't walk. The non-verbal shrugging conversation with the coach after the play does not instill confidence. Count the basket for the original question.
"the connected defender" is also the phrase/principle that I was taught to apply in this type of play wherein the action is transitioning from my primary but the "competitive matchup" still inheres.
I am not one to engage in post-foul chatiness with coaches; so, I found the refs "back n forth" with coach to be less than exemplary. In fact the ref almost stumbled into a player trying to report his foul.
Regarding the play, the "continuous motion" principle was correctly applied. Good call ref!
Personally, I m not one to do the fist punch/team control sign for the "and one"; rather I just use the NF sign.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2021, 08:42am
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IAABO Survey Says …

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...p8ZGXuCg%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is an accurate ruling.

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try or tap for field goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight. (4-11)

When the officials signal a foul has occurred, the ball handler is a step or two beyond the defender and is in the act of shooting. By counting the goal, the Trail official ruled that the ball handler had ended the dribble and was stepping toward the goal when the foul occurred.

The other aspect of the play is the double whistle. The official who is ruling within their PCA should be primarily responsible for the ruling. The official ruling outside their PCA should generally drop their signal and defer to the primary official to signal the infraction. (2020-21 IAABO manual p. 23 13.b) The Trail should have deferred to the Lead to make this ruling in this play, as the play occurred in the Lead's PCA.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is an accurate ruling 53% (including me). This ruling is inaccurate 47%.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 05, 2021 at 04:03pm.
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Old Sun Sep 05, 2021, 04:05pm
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Wow !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This ruling is inaccurate 47%.
Wow!

When one looks up continuous motion in the dictionary, there's a picture of this play.
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Old Mon Sep 06, 2021, 03:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...p8ZGXuCg%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is an accurate ruling.

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try or tap for field goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight. (4-11)

When the officials signal a foul has occurred, the ball handler is a step or two beyond the defender and is in the act of shooting. By counting the goal, the Trail official ruled that the ball handler had ended the dribble and was stepping toward the goal when the foul occurred.

The other aspect of the play is the double whistle. The official who is ruling within their PCA should be primarily responsible for the ruling. The official ruling outside their PCA should generally drop their signal and defer to the primary official to signal the infraction. (2020-21 IAABO manual p. 23 13.b) The Trail should have deferred to the Lead to make this ruling in this play, as the play occurred in the Lead's PCA.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is an accurate ruling 53% (including me). This ruling is inaccurate 47%.
The reason that officials are nearly 50/50 on the ruling of this play is because the foul occurs before the shooting motion, but the whistle sounds while the player begins to try for goal. We feel that it would be unfair to take this basket away because the player has a clear path to an easy goal when the contact occurs. I would suggest that this play is an excellent example of the old Tower philosophy which advocates officials calling plays according to advantage/disadvantage. Under that this minimal contact should be ignored and the offensive player be permitted to continue unhindered towards an easy score. On the other hand, officiating strictly by the book would have an official whistle this contact as a foul prior to the act of shooting and thus negate the easy goal.

I will note that the IAABO ruling cites the incorrect moment at which to judge if the act of shooting had begun. The correct point is not when the official signals, but rather when the illegal contact occurs.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon Sep 06, 2021 at 03:57am.
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Old Mon Sep 06, 2021, 07:26am
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If this is where the foul occurred, he never puts the ball back down to the floor. Count the basket IMO.

Didn't put this on my YouTube Page



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Old Mon Sep 06, 2021, 08:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If this is where the foul occurred, he never puts the ball back down to the floor. Count the basket IMO.
While dribbling after the foul would clearly demonstrate that the shooting motion had not begun prior to the foul, not dribbling after the foul is not conclusive proof that the throwing motion had begun and is not the proper standard by which to judge this play. I've heard that the NBA uses that guideline, but the NBA continuation rule is different from that of the NFHS and NCAA. For a HS game, we need to follow the HS rule.

The NFHS rules book states:
"These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

So show me when the player with the ball starts his throwing motion. That is not the same as merely catching the ball to end a dribble. That action happens before passing the ball too, so we can't know that the player is trying for goal simply from that. We must see more.

When in this video do we first see some kind of movement which indicates that the player is attempting to throw the ball towards the goal?

Does the foul occur before or after that moment?
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