Fun With Continuous Motion …

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Would have liked to have heard a cadence whistle from the Trail, waiting to see if the Lead had it (which he did).

I can almost hear the Black Team coach saying, "How can you call that from here?".

I know what you're saying, but, consider that it was the primary defender on a drive from the T's primary and the foul occurred just below the FT line. There are a lot of places that have that as the T's call first (take the primary defender on the drive from your primary all the way to the basket) and the L's second.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... consider that it was the primary defender on a drive from the T's primary and the foul occurred just below the FT line. There are a lot of places that have that as the T's call first (take the primary defender on the drive from your primary all the way to the basket) and the L's second.

Great explanation Camron Rust. Thanks.

I was forgetting that I was in Rome. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we have a forty-plus year old local custom that when a double whistle occurs in specific situations like this, the Trail drops his fist, and the Lead takes the call. It a part of everybody's pregame, even pregames that only go slightly beyond, "Good eye contact", and, "Don't screw up". We've always been trained that way, from the cradle to the grave.

Even though it's probably not fully "kosher" by NFHS (or IAABO) mechanics, it seems to work, no "blarges" in my games, or in games I've observed, in forty-plus years.

Of course, once again, as usual, as always, when in Rome ...

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I know what you're saying, but, consider that it was the primary defender on a drive from the T's primary and the foul occurred just below the FT line. There are a lot of places that have that as the T's call first (take the primary defender on the drive from your primary all the way to the basket) and the L's second.

Connected defender is the term I am most familiar with. The trail does not look good on this play. Run up the court, don't walk. The non-verbal shrugging conversation with the coach after the play does not instill confidence. Count the basket for the original question.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

Connected defender is the term I am most familiar with. The trail does not look good on this play. Run up the court, don't walk. The non-verbal shrugging conversation with the coach after the play does not instill confidence. Count the basket for the original question.

Looks like the ballhandler was walking up the court until he got past the division line. I think the Trail was in a good position to stay connected to the play. I think it doesn't look good for him to be unaware that the Lead had picked up the play and also had a whistle.

[Pantherdreams]

Count it.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

Connected defender is the term I am most familiar with. The trail does not look good on this play. Run up the court, don't walk. The non-verbal shrugging conversation with the coach after the play does not instill confidence. Count the basket for the original question.

"the connected defender" is also the phrase/principle that I was taught to apply in this type of play wherein the action is transitioning from my primary but the "competitive matchup" still inheres.
I am not one to engage in post-foul chatiness with coaches; so, I found the refs "back n forth" with coach to be less than exemplary. In fact the ref almost stumbled into a player trying to report his foul.
Regarding the play, the "continuous motion" principle was correctly applied. Good call ref!
Personally, I m not one to do the fist punch/team control sign for the "and one"; rather I just use the NF sign.

[BillyMac]

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...p8ZGXuCg%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is an accurate ruling.

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try or tap for field goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight. (4-11)

When the officials signal a foul has occurred, the ball handler is a step or two beyond the defender and is in the act of shooting. By counting the goal, the Trail official ruled that the ball handler had ended the dribble and was stepping toward the goal when the foul occurred.

The other aspect of the play is the double whistle. The official who is ruling within their PCA should be primarily responsible for the ruling. The official ruling outside their PCA should generally drop their signal and defer to the primary official to signal the infraction. (2020-21 IAABO manual p. 23 13.b) The Trail should have deferred to the Lead to make this ruling in this play, as the play occurred in the Lead's PCA.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is an accurate ruling 53% (including me). This ruling is inaccurate 47%.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This ruling is inaccurate 47%.

Wow!

When one looks up continuous motion in the dictionary, there's a picture of this play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...p8ZGXuCg%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is an accurate ruling.

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try or tap for field goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight. (4-11)

When the officials signal a foul has occurred, the ball handler is a step or two beyond the defender and is in the act of shooting. By counting the goal, the Trail official ruled that the ball handler had ended the dribble and was stepping toward the goal when the foul occurred.

The other aspect of the play is the double whistle. The official who is ruling within their PCA should be primarily responsible for the ruling. The official ruling outside their PCA should generally drop their signal and defer to the primary official to signal the infraction. (2020-21 IAABO manual p. 23 13.b) The Trail should have deferred to the Lead to make this ruling in this play, as the play occurred in the Lead's PCA.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is an accurate ruling 53% (including me). This ruling is inaccurate 47%.

The reason that officials are nearly 50/50 on the ruling of this play is because the foul occurs before the shooting motion, but the whistle sounds while the player begins to try for goal. We feel that it would be unfair to take this basket away because the player has a clear path to an easy goal when the contact occurs. I would suggest that this play is an excellent example of the old Tower philosophy which advocates officials calling plays according to advantage/disadvantage. Under that this minimal contact should be ignored and the offensive player be permitted to continue unhindered towards an easy score. On the other hand, officiating strictly by the book would have an official whistle this contact as a foul prior to the act of shooting and thus negate the easy goal.

I will note that the IAABO ruling cites the incorrect moment at which to judge if the act of shooting had begun. The correct point is not when the official signals, but rather when the illegal contact occurs.

[JRutledge]

If this is where the foul occurred, he never puts the ball back down to the floor. Count the basket IMO.

Didn't put this on my YouTube Page



Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this is where the foul occurred, he never puts the ball back down to the floor. Count the basket IMO.

While dribbling after the foul would clearly demonstrate that the shooting motion had not begun prior to the foul, not dribbling after the foul is not conclusive proof that the throwing motion had begun and is not the proper standard by which to judge this play. I've heard that the NBA uses that guideline, but the NBA continuation rule is different from that of the NFHS and NCAA. For a HS game, we need to follow the HS rule.

The NFHS rules book states:
"These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

So show me when the player with the ball starts his throwing motion. That is not the same as merely catching the ball to end a dribble. That action happens before passing the ball too, so we can't know that the player is trying for goal simply from that. We must see more.

When in this video do we first see some kind of movement which indicates that the player is attempting to throw the ball towards the goal?

Does the foul occur before or after that moment?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I will note that the IAABO ruling cites the incorrect moment at which to judge if the act of shooting had begun. The correct point is not when the official signals, but rather when the illegal contact occurs.

I know this play is NFHS, but for completeness sake -- in NCAAW, the time of the foul is when the whistle sounds.

I do agree on trying to determine if the contact caused a disadvantage, and /or deciding that the disadvantage happened a few feet after the initial contact

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... in NCAAW, the time of the foul is when the whistle sounds.

Always to listen to bob, especially in dealing with NCAA-W.

However.

Even if the official decides to have a patient whistle and to see the entire play unfold? What if the official spits out his whistle, or forgets to put the whistle in his mouth (happened to me at least once after talking to a polite coach during a live ball), or sneezes, or was breathing in at the time of the foul?

I wish that I got a dollar every time that I said to coaches in high school games over forty years, "Yes, it was a late whistle coach, but it was the correct call".