Fun With The Division Line ...

[JRutledge]

Well again the issue is not for me whether the dribble ended. This is not an issue of losing a dribble. This is an issue of the status of the ball. If you dribble off your leg while in the FC, the ball has reached FC status. The rest is about last and first touches in the FC as it relates to a BC violation.

And we are not going to solve this by the discussion here. So you can stop repeating the dribble rule because that is not why I think this is a violation.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is an issue of the status of the ball. If you dribble off your leg while in the FC, the ball has reached FC status.

Not according to this specific (backcourt to frontcourt dribble) situation and Article 6 of the Ball Location Rule.

Let's turn away from a dribble definition (I believe that we can now all agree that the dribble, even if interrupted, never ended) and look at "status" rules.

JRutledge himself correctly states that "this is an issue of the status of the ball", so let's take at close look at "status" rules.

JRutledge can point to Article 2 and Article 4 to make his interpretation, but if, and only if, if he totally and completely ignores Article 6.

Rule 4 - Section 4 - Ball Location
ART. 2 A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.
ART. 4 A ball which touches a player … is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual’s location.
ART. 6 During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

I believe that the NFHS views Article 6 as a "three points dribble exception" to Article 2 and Article 4, that certainly can't be ignored, and certainly should not be ignored.

Put simply:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I believe this is a legal play. The ball was being dribbled from the backcourt and to obtain frontcourt status the ball itself must touch the floor in the frontcourt (along with the feet). The ball never bounced on the floor, thus, the ball was never in the frontcourt. As such, there can't be a backcourt violation.

And, of course, we can't be sure if the ball actually did deflect off the player's leg, body, etc., so that component is purely academic.

If one is not sure, don't call it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And, of course, we can't be sure if the ball actually did deflect off the player's leg, body, etc., so that component is purely academic.

So, for sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that there was no deflection (interrupted dribble), that Red #40 simply dribbled the ball "backward".

Wouldn't JRutledge argue that this was also a "status/ball location" issue and that by Red #40 touching the ball while he was standing with both feet in the frontcourt that the ball had gained frontcourt status, also pointing to Article 2 and Article 4 as proof?

I don't see how a backcourt to frontcourt "deflection/fumble/interrupted" dribble in the frontcourt is any different than a "regular" garden variety backcourt to frontcourt dribble in the frontcourt. In both cases Article 6 (three points dribble exception) applies.

[BillyMac]

Situations are slightly unclear, but the ruling is as clear as a bell:

2000-01 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 1: Al is straddling the division line after catching and possessing a pass from A2. Al then fumbles the ball …

SITUATION 2: Same situation as above, except Al begins a dribble immediately upon fumbling the ball and retreats to his/her backcourt to avoid a defender.

RULING: During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt. Therefore, the play is legal and play continues. COMMENT: The provision of, “both feet and the ball being in the frontcourt” to determine frontcourt status, is only relevant during a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt.

"Only relevant during a dribble" is why knowing the definition of a dribble, and knowing when the dribble ends, is so important to this video interpretation (and sealed the deal for me).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... has nothing to do with the end of a dribble.

Yes it does. If the dribble had ended (it never ended), the 4-4-6 three point dribble exception wouldn't apply.

[Raymond]

What happens if dribbler A1:

1) establishes both feet in the FC
2) has not yet bounced the ball in the FC
3) pushes the ball towards the floor

at which point the ball hits the back of A2's heel, who also has both feet in the FC, and the ball lands in the BC, then:

4) A1 retrieves the ball in the BC by continuing his dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

What happens if dribbler A1: 1) establishes both feet in the FC 2) has not yet bounced the ball in the FC 3) pushes the ball towards the floor ... at which point the ball hits the back of A2's heel, who also has both feet in the FC, and the ball lands in the BC, then: 4) A1 retrieves the ball in the BC by continuing his dribble.

Adding a second party jacks this up a notch.

Even more interesting is that a dribble ends when a dribbler loses control due to touch by an opponent, not a teammate, so the dribble hasn't end.

The ball hitting A2's heel (in the frontcourt) is still part of A1's dribble.

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the 4-4-6 three point dribble exception to 4-4-4 (ball location) still applies.

4-4-6: During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

4-4-4: A ball which touches a player … is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual’s location.

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control; the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt.

Did the ball achieve frontcourt status? I don't think so.

If one can confidently make this call correctly (whatever turns out to be correct) in a real game, in real time, without guessing, one is a better basketball official than I am (with apologies to Rudyard Kipling and Cary Grant).

Raymond: I hope that you already know the correct answer to this situation and will eventually share the correct answer with us. Please don't be a tease.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes it does. If the dribble had ended (it never ended), the 4-4-6 three point dribble exception wouldn't apply.

Again it is not about the dribble if the ball gained status by you touching the ball (not on a clean dribble) and all parts of you are in the FC. Again you are giving your opinion and I am happy for that, but that is just that an opinion. AGain you are focusing on the dribble and I have a player basically bobble the ball while standing in the FC, that is also an opinion. I would suggest if this is an issue, ask the people in your organization what they think. I will ask those I work with what they think. I would not be surprised if we get differing answers. I am OK with that in unusual situations, which in many ways this is.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... have a player basically bobble the ball while standing in the FC ...

Yes, he may be bobbling (some loss of control) the ball, but by definition, he is also still dribbling the ball, his dribble never ended, and the ball hasn't actually "touched down" on the frontcourt.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... if the ball gained status by you touching the ball (not on a clean dribble) and all parts of you are in the FC.

I like JRutledge's "clean dribble" phrase better than my "regular garden variety dribble" phrase.

Where in the rulebook does it differentiate between a clean dribble and a not clean dribble when it comes dribbling across the division line from backcourt to frontcourt and ball location?

4-4-6: During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

2000-01 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations: The provision of, “both feet and the ball being in the frontcourt” to determine frontcourt status, is only relevant during a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt.

Where does the rulebbok say that the 4-4-6 three point dribble ball location exception only applies to clean dribbles, and that the 4-4-6 three point dribble ball location exception doesn't apply to not clean dribbles?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... it is not about the dribble if the ball gained status by you touching the ball (not on a clean dribble) and all parts of you are in the FC.

How can it not be about the dribble when a dribble is the only play listed in the "three point dribble across the division line from backcourt to frontcourt ball location exception" rule, so one better know what a dribble is, and when the dribble ends.

The "exception" doesn't apply to a pass, or a pivot, or anything else, just a dribble, and only a dribble.

A dribble is a dribble whether the ball goes directly from a hand to the floor, or from a hand to the dribbler's leg to the floor. As long as it's a dribble the "three point dribble across the division line from backcourt to frontcourt ball location exception" rule applies. In the video, the dribble never ended.

4-4-6: During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

Show me a rule that states otherwise.

What part of the 4-4-6 exception has not been met? The ball never touched the court in the frontcourt. So the ball, by rule 4-4-6 (an important exception to Article 2 and Article 4) never obtained frontcourt status, a significant component of the four component backcourt rule.