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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 06:20pm
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Fun With The Division Line ...

Should this have been ruled a backcourt violation? Observe the play and make a ruling as to whether or not this should have been ruled a backcourt violation or a legal play.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...af3PS1AzKL.mp4

Two choices: This is a legal play. This is a backcourt violation.

My comment: This is a backcourt violation. The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control when coming from a throwin); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt. Ball gained backcourt status when it hit the division line.
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Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 06:45pm
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I don't think the ball ever reaches the FC until Green 3 gets the ball.

Green 23's foot on on the division line when he touches the ball, and the ball bounces on the division line before green 3 gets the ball
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Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 09:09pm
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Bob is right as usual. Ball never has FC status until #3 brings the ball across. Tricky to see live because of the spots you have to look at that arent close at all to each other. With the luxury of going frame by frame its easier to see. Legal play.
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Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 09:46pm
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Legal play. The player who taps the ball has a foot on the division line which makes his location in the backcourt and hence his touch of the ball also keeps the ball with backcourt status. The ball then strikes the floor in the backcourt prior to being possessed by a teammate moving from the backcourt to the frontcourt. Therefore, no violation occurred on this play.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 10:06am
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Pass that originates in the back court, that is deflected by an offensive player who is standing on the division line, then bounces in the back court again. No violation.

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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 10:46am
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I cannot tell where he was when the ball was deflected. If you cannot determine then do not make a violation call in this kind of situation. Get the big ones.

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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 10:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I cannot tell where he was when the ball was deflected. If you cannot determine then do not make a violation call in this kind of situation. Get the big ones.

Peace
Yep, I was going to follow up to my post. If you're an official on this play and you cannot clearly see that the player who deflected the ball had FC status, you don't blow your whistle.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 11:32am
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Division Line ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Green 23's foot on on the division line when he touches the ball ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... deflected by an offensive player who is standing on the division line ...
Agree. Looked again at 1/4 speed (available to IAABO members) and Green #22 is on the division line when he touches the ball. Missed that the first time.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. Looked again at 1/4 speed (available to IAABO members) and Green #22 is on the division line when he touches the ball. Missed that the first time.
You're making our point. When you looked at it the first time, how were you able to definitely say that he had FC status? Nobody looking at the video could say they the player with FC status, so we shouldn't be blowing our whistles.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 02:25pm
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Blown Call ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
When you looked at it the first time, how were you able to definitely say that he had FC status?
First time through, real time, no slow motion replay, I put myself in the position of an official on the floor, with no more, and no less, than the usual anticipation of what could happen, split second to react, didn't see Green #22's foot on the division line, and I blew the call (not the rule, but the call). Wasn't my first blown call, and won't my last blown call.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
First time through, real time, no slow motion replay, I put myself in the position of an official on the floor, with no more, and no less, than the usual anticipation of what could happen, split second to react, didn't see Green #22's foot on the division line, and I blew the call (not the rule, but the call). Wasn't my first blown call, and won't my last blown call.
Again, you're missing my point. You looked at a play and you said you did not see his foot on the line. But it was so close to the line you also could not have seen it if it was in the front court. We should not be guessing on these calls because it looks like it might be a violation.

That's the mindset that needs to change.

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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Again, you're missing my point. You looked at a play and you said you did not see his foot on the line. But it was so close to the line you also could not have seen it if it was in the front court. We should not be guessing on these calls because it looks like it might be a violation.

That's the mindset that needs to change.

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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 04:27pm
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Binary Decision ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
We should not be guessing on these calls because it looks like it might be a violation.
Agree regarding not guessing when unsure. I didn't guess. From my perspective, it didn't just "look" like a violation, I was sure that it was a violation. At the split second it occurred, I was sure that his foot was fully in the frontcourt, not touching the division line. Yes, in a perfect world, it should be binary decision, not on the line, or on the line. No gray area. No possibility of an error. Maybe I was concentrating on something else and was using my peripheral vision? Maybe I distracted myself by going through the backcourt rule in my head? I assumed something incorrectly. There was a lot going on in transition. I was wrong. Is is what it is, a mistake, poor judgement, nothing more. Live and learn. But I honestly can say that I didn't guess.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Feb 24, 2021 at 04:37pm.
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 04:29pm
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Always Listen To bob ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
"It's better to miss something that did happen than to call something that didn't happen."
Agree. Who's quote?
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Old Wed Feb 24, 2021, 04:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree regarding not guessing when unsure. I didn't guess. From my perspective, it didn't just "look" like a violation, I was sure that it was a violation. At the split second it occurred, I was sure that his foot was fully in the frontcourt, not touching the division line. Yes, in a perfect world, it should be binary decision, not on the line, or on the line. No gray area. No possibility of an error. Maybe I was concentrating on something else and was using my peripheral vision? I assumed something incorrectly. There was a lot going on in transition. I was wrong. Is is what it is, a mistake, poor judgement, nothing more. Live and learn. But I honestly can say that I didn't guess.

We need to see a violation not anticipate or think there was one just because there were a lot of things going on.

if you write it off as something that can't be corrected or just as "oh well I made a mistake", then how are you going to teach someone else not to do the same?

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