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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
As we all know, real game situations are not the same as written exam questions (or answers athletic directors and coaches want after a problem that went against them that they believe of be contrary to rules, they all have referee buddies to go to for rule citations).

It's one thing to admit that one doesn't have definite knowledge and to guess and put time on the clock. It's not correct by rule. It's not correct by interpretation. It's wrong. It can come back to bite one in the butt.

It's something else to make an educated guess without admitting there was no definite knowledge. "Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (even though you didn't). Cheating? Many may see it as good game management, and it could be considered to be fair if one is certain that there was an error, or delay. If one can sleep at night after doing that, I can certainly commiserate with that.
The human brain and eye can only process certain things accurately when it comes to a clock with tenths of a second and even the light if we have one on the court or in plain view. So again I get that you would get hung up on the word definite, but if I called a foul before the horn or light, that is definite knowledge that some time would be put back on the clock. Again that could be .3 seconds, but not sure I have to know anymore than that fact. Because you said that it is OK to use a mental count, but that does not mean everyone counts that accurately either. So we are basically guessing. There are officials that do not even count the same just by looking at their visual counts, so now we are to use those things and assume that no other method applies. Just silly to me, but again I do not have to prove anything in this conversation, just stating a way to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Peace
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:05pm
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Referee’s Accuracy ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Because you said that it is OK to use a mental count, but that does not mean everyone counts that accurately either. So we are basically guessing. There are officials that do not even count the same just by looking at their visual counts ...
You, and the rest of us, are covered by interpretation.

Revised 1997 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations Situation #12: ...There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the referee’s accuracy.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:14pm
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Avoid The G Word ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
So we are basically guessing.
Of course we are (if we choose to do so), just don't answer that on a written exam, or use the word "guess" within hearing distance of an upset coach, or irate athletic director. They may later discover that the NFHS doesn't allow us (with one specific interpretation exception) to guess and it can come back to bite us in the butt.

“Never miss a good chance to shut up.” (Will Rogers)
"The things I did not say never hurt me." (Calvin Coolidge)

"Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (BillyMac)
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 22, 2021 at 01:30pm.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:24pm
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Table Crew ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I am not asking a bias home table to give me information about a clock situation in that way. They might tell me something, but I am not making a final decision based on their information.
5.10.1 Situation D: ... The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches and the timer about the matter.

The NFHS allows this as only one part of collecting all the facts. Too bad that we can't trust all table crews. I'd say we can fully trust about 90% here in my little corner of Connecticut. We've had scorekeepers and timekeepers who have been on the job for decades and we know each other by first names. It's always nice to walk into a gym and see a familiar face at the table.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 22, 2021 at 01:27pm.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 02:14pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
5.10.1 Situation D: ... The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches and the timer about the matter.

The NFHS allows this as only one part of collecting all the facts. Too bad that we can't trust all table crews. I'd say we can fully trust about 90% here in my little corner of Connecticut. We've had scorekeepers and timekeepers who have been on the job for decades and we know each other by first names. It's always nice to walk into a gym and see a familiar face at the table.
Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. IJS.

Peace
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 02:27pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Of course we are (if we choose to do so), just don't answer that on a written exam, or use the word "guess" within hearing distance of an upset coach, or irate athletic director. They may later discover that the NFHS doesn't allow us (with one specific interpretation exception) to guess and it can come back to bite us in the butt.

“Never miss a good chance to shut up.” (Will Rogers)
"The things I did not say never hurt me." (Calvin Coolidge)

"Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (BillyMac)
I do not work in a state that asks those silly NF questions. I am not talking about passing a test, I am talking about what is reality. Again that book can get you guys in trouble trying to use it without consideration of the real world. Yeah, you ask them table people and see if they give you honest and real answers. At least that would be suspect here.

Peace
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 03:01pm
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Double Edged Sword ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Again that book can get you guys in trouble trying to use it without consideration of the real world.
It's a double edged sword, cutting both ways. The rulebook can hurt us, but it can also help us.

My point is that if in an end of game, close score, situation, if an official admits to "guessing" within earshot of losing coaches or athletic directors, those coaches and directors will find out from one of their official buddies (they all have them) that "guessing' was not by the book (lots of rule, casebook, and interpretations to support that the official screwed up), which can come back to bite the official in the butt if the issue is bumped up the ladder to an assigner, or the state association.

Rather than admitting to "guessing", I'm saying to just say, "Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (be firm, sell it, all good officials watch the clock in the last seconds of a period), after making your best judgment estimate in your mind, and then the actual rule can't hurt you.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 23, 2021 at 06:28pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 03:26pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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I am simply talking about this situation. Not talking about every situation. I am not asking table people for information to decide the game without any conversation with my partners. That is not happening. You can do that, but I will not do that in this kind of situation.

Peace
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 06:46pm
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Hierarchy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I am not asking table people for information to decide the game without any conversation with my partners.
My hierarchy: Me first. Not sure? My partner second. Still not sure? Table officials (timekeeper, official scorekeeper, and visiting scorekeeper). Referee decides on credibility of table officials. Still not sure? Referee makes final decision, which may be based on:

2-13-4: If table officials disagree, the goal must count and/or the foul must be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.

2-5-5: The referee must: Decide matters upon which the scorer and timer disagree and correct obvious timing errors.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 22, 2021 at 06:50pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 10:21pm
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Check your local listings. For varsity games, at least in some associations, the clock operator is also an official. If that is the case, the crew can consult with him (her) the same as with each other. If any doubt still remains, the goal will count and/or the foul will be penalized, unless there is definite information that alters the ruling. With reference to the OP, if the clock operator/official knows that time remains, he will consult with the referee and put time back on the clock (if the game clock does not use 10ths, 1 second, if it does, then whatever time he (and the calling official) had when the whistle was blown or foul signaled, whichever happened first).

Last edited by ilyazhito; Mon Feb 22, 2021 at 10:23pm.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 10:28am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
My hierarchy: Me first. Not sure? My partner second. Still not sure? Table officials (timekeeper, official scorekeeper, and visiting scorekeeper). Referee decides on credibility of table officials. Still not sure? Referee makes final decision, which may be based on:

2-13-4: If table officials disagree, the goal must count and/or the foul must be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.

2-5-5: The referee must: Decide matters upon which the scorer and timer disagree and correct obvious timing errors.
Sounds wonderful on paper, but again I am not having the table people make a decision of the clock. If we have to do that, then we are not doing the right thing. They are clearly the last result and I stand by that position. I think the crew needs to know what is going on with the clock and make the proper decisions. Just the way I roll. Anyone here can default to anything they wish.

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 11:48am
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Stop Clock Signal ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... when the whistle was blown or foul signaled ...
Interesting reminder. Many non-officials would believe that the foul itself stops the clock (it only makes to ball dead in many circumstances).

5-8-1-A: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals: A foul.

Note: It is my opinion that by "signal" a foul, the NFHS means that the "signal" can be audible, a whistle sounding; and/or an actual visual "stop the clock" (fist) signal.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 23, 2021 at 12:15pm.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 12:06pm
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Rare As Hen's Teeth ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
With reference to the OP, if the clock operator/official knows that time remains, he will consult with the referee and put time back on the clock ...
Re-read the original post. There's no indication that an error, or a delay, occurred. Nor is there any indication that the automatic horn was turned off.

This is one of those extremely rare times in an officiating career when the clock shows all zeros, but the horn hasn't sounded. While no time shows on the scoreboard clock, more time does exist within the internal mechanism of the system. For a scoreboard that doesn't shows tenths of a second, the remaining time may be tenths of a second. For a scoreboard that shows tenths of a second, the remaining time may be hundredths of a second. Some modern consoles may show the split-second remaining time, other won't.

There is no NFHS rule that tells us to add time to the "scoreboard" clock in such circumstances. If the "scoreboard" clock can't show tenths of a second, then it can't show tenths of a second. If the "scoreboard" clock can't show hundredths of a second, then it can't show hundredths of a second. We don't "substitute" on the "scoreboard" clock a second for a tenth of a second, or a tenth of a second for an hundredth of a second. We just tell the coaches that there is a split second remaining (known, or unknown), and finish playing the period.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 23, 2021 at 01:19pm.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 12:13pm
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Penultimate Last Result ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... table ... are clearly the last result ...
Unless the referee finds their information to be credible, they are not the last result (even then, it's not them, it's the referee finding them credible). The referee is the penultimate last result, and he may defer to the ultimate last result, the rulebook (the goal will count and/or the foul will be penalized).
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 23, 2021 at 12:18pm.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 23, 2021, 12:22pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Unless the referee finds their information to be credible, they are not the last result (even then, it's not them, it's the referee finding them credible). The referee is the penultimate last result, and he may defer to the ultimate last result, the rulebook (the goal will count and/or the foul will be penalized).
I have been doing this for awhile. I do not need your instruction on what I am going to do in these situations. You can take the information or leave it. Just telling you what I have found and what works. Not asking for approval from you or anyone on this topic. I get what you want to do and you should do that. Let us that have been doing this a long time too make the best decisions. I do not work for IAABO or the NF. I work for assignors (more than 10) in two different states and no on is caring about the things you have mentioned.

Peace
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