Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Head coach using an e-cigarette tobacco product?

C'mon Nevadaref. How long are you going to keep us hanging?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

C'mon Nevadaref. How long are you going to keep us hanging?

Senior Night: the team had six Seniors and the coach elected to start all six of them and take the team technical foul once the ball became live.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Senior Night: the team had six Seniors and the coach elected to start all six of them and take the team technical foul once the ball became live.

Smart coach.

Smart unless it was the last regular season game, the opposing team made both technical foul free throws, his team ended up losing by one point, and because of the loss his team just missed making the state tournament.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Early stages, I'm kind of maybe possibly thinking about writing an educational article on jump balls.

I was reviewing the rules and came up with these odd scenarios.

First some rules:

The tossed ball must be touched by one or both of the jumpers after it reaches its highest point. If the ball contacts the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss it again.

To start the game and each extra period, the ball shall be put in play in the center restraining circle by a jump ball between any two opponents.

If play is started or resumed by a jump ball, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

The ball becomes live when the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand(s).

The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3.

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

3) Another similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute non-jumper A6 for non-jumper A5. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table. A5 is not injured nor is A5 bleeding.

No can do. Once a player is a jumper, he may not be substituted for unless injured, bleeding, or disqualified. If a technical foul occurs, the formerly designated jumper may be replaced to shoot the free throws, as the jump ball situation has ended.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Once a player is a jumper, he may not be substituted for unless injured, bleeding, or disqualified ...

Agree.



No more jump balls.

The jump ball is as outdated as the set shot, short shorts, and chicken wire cages around the perimeter of the court. For generations of players and fans they are a forgettable anachronistic formality. Coaches bemoan inconsistency in officials tossing the ball, and unevenly governed rules about the movement of players during the jump ball (how many officials start the game by incorrectly stating "Don't move" to all the players?), and some officials are weary of policing these microbursts of mayhem.

Start the game by giving the ball to the visiting team and use the alternating possession arrow after that, including the overtime periods. That's why God created the alternating possession arrow on the eighth day.

Also, since I know that he's going to say something, a preemptive "Shut up" to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (pictured in photo above on far left with mustache and receding hairline). This photo must have been taken in November (Movember).

[LRZ]

(1) A2 is not an "entering substitute," so 3-3-2 does not apply. Allow the switch or replacement on a non-jumping player for the designated jumper; this is not a substitution for two reasons: A2 is not a substitute, nor is she entering (she was already in the game). "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court." 4-34-3.
(2) Do not allow the substitution. 3-3-2.
(3) Allow the substitution of a non-jumper for another non-jumper.

"Designated jumper" is not defined anywhere in the rule or case books, nor do the rules state that a "designated jumper" cannot be replaced by a player already on the floor; the prohibition in 3-3-2 only bars a substitute for the "designated jumper."

I don't say this is always true, but here, the adage "If it's not illegal, it's legal" seems appropriate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

(1) A2 is not an "entering substitute," so 3-3-2 does not apply ... this is not a substitution for two reasons: A2 is not a substitute, nor is she entering (she was already in the game). "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court." 4-34-3.

Great point LRZ.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

"Designated jumper" is not defined anywhere in the rule or case books, nor do the rules state that a "designated jumper" cannot be replaced by a player already on the floor ...

While it's true that "designated jumper" isn't defined, sometimes it's implied.

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

It may even be implied in my first situation.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

A2 is not an "entering substitute," so 3-3-2 does not apply. Allow the switch or replacement on a non-jumping player for the designated jumper; this is not a substitution for two reasons: A2 is not a substitute, nor is she entering (she was already in the game). "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court." 4-34-3. "Designated jumper" is not defined anywhere in the rule or case books, nor do the rules state that a "designated jumper" cannot be replaced by a player already on the floor; the prohibition in 3-3-2 only bars a substitute for the "designated jumper"...

This (below) is the only reference that I can find regarding "designated jumper". While it's not defined, it's implied that such a "thing" exists (especially when one views the casebook play 6.4.1 SITUATION C), and LRZ is correct that this specific implication only seems to apply to a substitution situation, not to the players already on the court.

3-3-2:The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an
official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is
about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld. The
entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower
except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must
jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next
opportunity to substitute.

The casebook play tells us that "designated jumper" applies to a tapped ball being touched simultaneously by nonjumpers A2 and B2 and then going out of bounds, or the tapped ball being simultaneously controlled by nonjumpers A2 and B2.

The casebook play doesn't tell us what to do if the jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds, but most of us would probably rejump with the same jumpers (are they "designated jumpers"?).

It also doesn't tell us that "designated jumper" applies to a rejump as in my first situation where the tossed ball hits the floor untouched.

Shouldn't "designated jumper" also apply to my first situation?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Early stages, I'm kind of maybe possibly thinking about writing an educational article on jump balls.

I was reviewing the rules and came up with these odd scenarios.

First some rules:

The tossed ball must be touched by one or both of the jumpers after it reaches its highest point. If the ball contacts the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss it again.

To start the game and each extra period, the ball shall be put in play in the center restraining circle by a jump ball between any two opponents.

If play is started or resumed by a jump ball, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

The ball becomes live when the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand(s).

The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3.

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

3) Another similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute non-jumper A6 for non-jumper A5. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table. A5 is not injured nor is A5 bleeding.

Billy:

Situation #1: Not legal.

Situations #2 and #3: Legal.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Billy:

Situations 1 and 2: A6 can replace A1.

Situation 3: A6 can replace A5.

MTD, Sr.

I’m interested to hear your reasoning.
I believe that 1&3 are simple as the substitution restriction does not apply. However, situation 2 is unclear. Is there a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period? If so, is this the same jump ball or a new one?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Is there a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period? If so, is this the same jump ball or a new one?

Bingo.

"That is the question" (William Shakespeare, Hamlet)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Situations 1 and 2: A6 can replace A1.

There is no A6 in Situation 1?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3) Another similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute non-jumper A6 for non-jumper A5. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table. A5 is not injured nor is A5 bleeding.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

However, situation 3 is unclear.

I thought that this was the clearest situation.

The ball became live on the toss, the game started (thus avoiding the designated starter rule), even though the clock didn't start. Since players don't have to play "a tick", substitute A6 should be allowed to substitute for nonjumper A5.

No "designated jumper" was harmed in the making of this situation.

[Raymond]

Do not make stuff up. There is only one place and situation in the rulebook where it states 2 specific players must jump.

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