Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...

[Altor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Regarding Situation 3, the ball became live on the toss, the game started, even though the clock didn't start. Since players don't have to play "a tick", A6 should be allowed to substitute for A5.

At the beginning of the game, I agree. However, if A6 was a player at the end of 4Q and was subbed out during the intermission, he cannot re-enter until after he "sits a tick."

Edit: Just realized Sit 1 specifies "to begin the game" and Sits 2 and 3 say "similar situation." So, you all can ignore this if you want.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

At the beginning of the game, I agree. However, if A6 was a player at the end of 4Q and was subbed out during the intermission, he cannot re-enter until after he "sits a tick." Edit: Just realized Sit 1 specifies "to begin the game" and Sits 2 and 3 say "similar situation." So, you all can ignore this if you want.

Still a valid point for the good of the cause.



For extra credit, under what rare situation does the "Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick" not apply and a substitute is allowed to enter the game without having to sit a tick?

[Nevadaref]

Allow the substitutions in all three scenarios.
The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game. There is now only one situation in which a player is a designated jumper. You mentioned it in your earlier post—following a jump ball, two players create a held ball prior to player control being gained and the possession arrow being established. Under NFHS rules, those two players must now participate in a jump ball. Note: the NCAA recently changed its ruling on this to allow any two jumpers to conduct such a jump ball.

I’ll also note that your substitution scenarios are no different from a technical foul occurring after the release of the tossed ball, but prior to it being touched. Yep, I’ve actually had this happen in a HS game. So the ball has become live and then dead, yet no time has come off the clock. Subs are certainly permitted at this time. In my situation, we even attempted 2FTs with 8:00 still showing on the clock. Subs could happen before, between, or after those FTs.
Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Allow the substitutions in all three scenarios.
The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game ...

Nice to see that I'm not the only Forum member uncomfortable with the word "designated" in the rule: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper.

"Designated" by whom? The coach? The rule? The official?

I'm not quite ready, like Nevadaref, to allow a substitution (or a switched jumper) in the first two situations, but I can probably be easily convinced.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice to see that I'm not the only Forum member uncomfortable with the word "designated" in the rule: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper.

"Designated" by whom? The coach? The rule? The official?

I'm not quite ready, like Nevadaref, to allow a substitution (or switched as the jumper) in the first two situations, but I can probably be easily convinced.

My answer would be the officials or the rules. Remember this rule predates the AP arrow, so it covered situations in which two opposing players caused a held ball at some point in the game and a jump ball restart was necessitated. The two players involved in the held ball would be designated to jump. The restriction on substitution was put in to prevent a team from subbing out such a player who was short for a tall player from the bench.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My answer would be the officials or the rules. Remember this rule predates the AP arrow, so it covered situations in which two opposing players caused a held ball at some point in the game and a jump ball restart was necessitated. The two players involved in the held ball would be designated to jump. The restriction on substitution was put in to prevent a team from subbing out such a player who was short for a tall player from the bench.

Agree (good explanation for the reasoning behind the rule), but the "designated"" wording is still in the rulebook.

3-3-2: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

Is "must" really "must" in my first two situations?

[BillyMac]

I'm surprised that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. hasn't chimed in, this thread contains two of his favorite topics, jump balls (nobody loves jump balls more than Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.), and playing with five trumping sitting a tick (Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s favorite casebook play).



Young'uns can look it up on the Google.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... a technical foul occurring after the release of the tossed ball, but prior to it being touched ... So the ball has become live and then dead, yet no time has come off the clock. Subs are certainly permitted at this time. In my situation, we even attempted 2FTs with 8:00 still showing on the clock. Subs could happen before, between, or after those FTs.

Agree that substitutes can come in at these times, but since it's the start of the game, nobody has to sit a tick because nobody came out of the game, and tried to renter.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

If your technical foul after the toss situation happened during the jump ball to start an overtime period (as mentioned by Altor), then the "sit a tick" rule may apply.

Or does, the free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute trump the "sit a tick" rule for such an overtime jump ball technical free throw?

For example, the best free throw shooter on team was a player on the court at the end of regulation, but didn't start the overtime period and was not on the floor for the overtime jump ball when the technical foul occurred before the clock started? Does the team's best free throw shooter, who is on the bench, have to sit a tick to attempt the technical foul free throws?

8-3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by
any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or
designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free thrower(s).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree that substitutes can come in at these times, but since it's the start of the game, nobody has to sit a tick because nobody came out of the game, and tried to renter.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

If your technical foul after the toss situation happened during the jump ball to start an overtime period (as mentioned by Altor), then the "sit a tick" rule may apply.

Or does, the free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute trump the "sit a tick" rule for such an overtime jump ball technical free throw?

The sit a tick rule applies. The team member who exited the game at the end of regulation is simply not an eligible substitute at this time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The sit a tick rule applies. The team member who exited the game at the end of regulation is simply not an eligible substitute at this time.

Agree.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

Head coach using an e-cigarette tobacco product?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Head coach using an e-cigarette tobacco product?

C'mon Nevadaref. How long are you going to keep us hanging?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

C'mon Nevadaref. How long are you going to keep us hanging?

Senior Night: the team had six Seniors and the coach elected to start all six of them and take the team technical foul once the ball became live.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Senior Night: the team had six Seniors and the coach elected to start all six of them and take the team technical foul once the ball became live.

Smart coach.

Smart unless it was the last regular season game, the opposing team made both technical foul free throws, his team ended up losing by one point, and because of the loss his team just missed making the state tournament.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For extra credit, under what rare situation does the "Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick" not apply and a substitute is allowed to enter the game without having to sit a tick?

There isn’t one. MTD’s case play ruling is incorrect. Sad that Mary Struckhoff was convinced by it. The team should comply with the substitution rule and temporarily play with four as an older case play ruling states to do when a player has an asthma attack.