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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 02:04am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Yeah, that will get you dropped. If you are a college ref and want to stay a college ref, then that are certain expectations. Saying no because of rec or HS games is not one of them.





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I agree. Here, the expectation is that you can take a college game, even same day. The HS assignor accepts those without holding it against you....college always wins. If you don't want to give up a HS game for a college game, you block the date.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 02:05am
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
If you are working for someone who won't let you say no to a day-of assignment, you are working for a bad assignor.
I disagree.

I your calendar says available, you are available. If you don't want a game, block your calendar. Save the assignor 30 phone call trying to find someone who's calendar is accurate.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 10:20am
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No ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Next time Mr. College Assignor called with a last minute assignment, he said “no.” That was the last year he worked college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If your calendar says available, you are available. If you don't want a game, block your calendar.
Another reason why I never stepped up. I was told that with as little as one "No" you would pretty much put yourself on the bottom of the list.

Of course, back then there was no Arbiter, no email, no cell phones; just snail mail, land line phone calls, and answering "machines".

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Feb 13, 2020 at 10:53am.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 11:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I disagree.



I your calendar says available, you are available. If you don't want a game, block your calendar. Save the assignor 30 phone call trying to find someone who's calendar is accurate.


The problem with Arbiter is that having a game in one group doesn’t always affect how you’re seen in another group.

I worked college baseball for over a decade. My main reason for quitting is that my assigner used to call and try to convince me to “dump my HS game” for him. Even though I blocked the date on my Arbiter.

Also, he thought it was normal to be able to umpire 18 innings starting at noon on a weekday on a moments notice. He rewarded those who could with postseason recommendations. He used the rest of us to fill his schedules.

No thanks, bye bye.


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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 12:31pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
The problem with Arbiter is that having a game in one group doesn’t always affect how you’re seen in another group.
Can't you just have the date blocked regardless of the level? I know when I share Arbiter blocks, I do not share the site or the level with another group.

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I worked college baseball for over a decade. My main reason for quitting is that my assigner used to call and try to convince me to “dump my HS game” for him. Even though I blocked the date on my Arbiter.



Also, he thought it was normal to be able to umpire 18 innings starting at noon on a weekday on a moments notice. He rewarded those who could with postseason recommendations. He used the rest of us to fill his schedules.

No thanks, bye bye.
It is baseball, chances are you are also working a lot earlier than that high school game. One of the reasons I got out was the ego of assignors that felt your time was their time in a sport that did not make money. They needed to get over themselves. (Off my soap box).

College basketball conferences have gotten away from using Arbiter, so this is not the same issue. You literally can block a date for any reason and know one really knows unless you actually tell them why there is a block. BlueZebra is used more by college assignors anymore. It is a better site and easier to block things. So if you want to work your little 4th grade games you can do so an no one is going to know unless you tell them you are working 4th grade games.

Peace
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 01:32pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Can't you just have the date blocked regardless of the level? I know when I share Arbiter blocks, I do not share the site or the level with another group.







It is baseball, chances are you are also working a lot earlier than that high school game. One of the reasons I got out was the ego of assignors that felt your time was their time in a sport that did not make money. They needed to get over themselves. (Off my soap box).



College basketball conferences have gotten away from using Arbiter, so this is not the same issue. You literally can block a date for any reason and know one really knows unless you actually tell them why there is a block. BlueZebra is used more by college assignors anymore. It is a better site and easier to block things. So if you want to work your little 4th grade games you can do so an no one is going to know unless you tell them you are working 4th grade games.



Peace


So, I am off the floor. 30+ years and three sports have left me likely in need of a new knee or 2. I can work FB and on the diamond, but the twisting of my knee on a court I can't take day after day. I am also assigning a lot and evaluating.

(Note: I've kept my streak going by covering a late flu scratch this week. Varsity boys. I got through it.)

What I've learned: I was insane working 60+ HS games a season. Nights at home with family are wonderful. The games go on. I wish I could go back and cut my schedule in half.

Some people may want to take it easy, stay close to home, and not drive 3-4 hours to work that night.

No need to insult the 4th graders by calling it a "little 4th grade game."


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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 01:54pm
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I don't think I've ever worked more than 35 HS games in a season. I started off my officiating career with strict 50/50 shared custody of 9 and 3 year-old boys, so I've never been a game ho. If I had to choose between working 1-2 D3 games/week vs. 3-5 HS games a week, college wins out easy. I no longer need the $$$ from officiating to help balance my income, so I've been doing it strictly for achievement for quite a while now.

I simply enjoy the college game so much more. It's not only the quality of play and coaching, it's also working with much better officials at the college level. I don't work little kids games b/c I am totally disinterested in those games. I don't want to leave my house for games I don't want to work.

Whenever I work off-season, AAU and AAU-type basketball, I work no more than 3 games in a day, usually just once for the entire weekend. Other officials question me as if I'm acting like I'm special. I'm not special, I just choose my work load. I have no obligation to work a whole bunch of rec and AAU-style ball. Emails about shortages do not sway me either. I work off-season either b/c there is a high-level tournament going on or I'm preparing for a camp.

I say all that to say, we all make choices in how we provide our services. I choose to subject myself to the inequities of the college game b/c that's the level I want to work, while I limit my availability and workload for other levels b/c that's also what I choose to do.

To each his own; nobody is right or wrong for how they choose to pursue this avocation.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Feb 14, 2020 at 09:14am.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 08:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
What I've learned: I was insane working 60+ HS games a season. Nights at home with family are wonderful. The games go on. I wish I could go back and cut my schedule in half.

Some people may want to take it easy, stay close to home, and not drive 3-4 hours to work that night.

No need to insult the 4th graders by calling it a "little 4th grade game."
My first mentor told me this a long time ago.
Quote:
"When you leave your home and dread what you are about to do, it is time to change something."
I took his advice over 20 years ago and still apply that to my career today.

I would leave my home dreading covering middle school games even if they are 10 minutes from my house, which usually is more than one game a night, on a horrible floor or subpar gym to work games. If I am going to be away from my family I would rather see as many 3 digit numbers as possible for a similar time on the floor. I do not mind driving 3 or 4 hours if I love the experience of what I am doing. I am not doing this all year long. I gave up baseball for a similar reason. I simply did not love the experiences at any level. And I was fortunate to work all levels of amateur baseball at one time. I also know you officiated college football too. Those were much longer days even if the game was 40 minutes away because of what crew chiefs wanted than any basketball game I work for the most part. Having to be on the field a literal hour before the game starts and being at the school sometimes an hour before you get on the field. And those games are on a Saturday where I really could be spending time with my wife and kid. If I can do that like I did this fall, I can work a game 30 minutes from my house (which some games are that close) and be there a little over an hour and after the game I can leave. Heck during football weekends we have to do other stuff and take our time to get out of the locker room with 6 or 7 other people there.

If I am going to work a game, I am going to at least work something I enjoy and not deal with some parent that is a coach and never played the game a day in their life. I would rather get yelled at where there is actual accountability by all participants and a larger organization can oversee the behavior of everyone. That does not take place with middle school games. Anything below high school is a waste of my time and that is my choice. So if that insults people to say, "Little 4th Grade Middle school game" then so be it. For one those that work those games often seem to get value out of those games, but that is them. Those games would make me pull my hair out and I have a lot of hair.

So even though working a few hours from my home can be sometimes a chore (like I did last night going to another state), at least I enjoy the experience for the most part. And yes you still get yelled at, but you are dealing with a more reasonable environment. Working a middle school game can be a cluster with no personal value to working those games for me. I do not apologize for my stance. Which is why I only work boys games and men's college during the season. I worked hard to make that choice and not turning back now.

Peace
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 09:23am
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Experiences about accountability and reasonable environments vary widely, obviously, and let's not conflate school and travel/rec ball. My experience is that HS and MS coaches are held accountable, but travel/rec, not so much.

I'd rather do a competitive 4th grade game (yes, there is such a thing) or MS game than a 60-point HS blow-out, especially when I feel like I'm contributing to the kids' game in ways that the typical overweight, over-the-hill or indifferent official can't or won't.

And, fortunately for me, with lots of HSs and MSs in the Philadelphia suburbs, I set a 20-mile limit on Arbiter and I still work as much as I care to.

That's my experience, and I won't generalize beyond that.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 09:29am
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Quality Over Quantity ...

I don't officiate basketball for the money, but I wouldn't do it for free, and I wouldn't do it if it weren't fun, and challenging.

I gave up recreation/travel/AAU games a long time ago (no longer needed the money). Gave up Catholic middle school games a few years ago. Now I only work games assigned by my local board, which includes middle school games.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 14, 2020 at 09:41am.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 09:56am
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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
Experiences about accountability and reasonable environments vary widely, obviously, and let's not conflate school and travel/rec ball. My experience is that HS and MS coaches are held accountable, but travel/rec, not so much.
That is true, but I am not working in everyone's area. For one all high school games are under the jurisdiction from the IHSA or even the IHSAA where I live. So that means that if I give as much of a technical foul, someone might have to answer. And certainly, if I eject someone from a game there really is accountability as there is a report to be filed with the home offices. There is no such thing at any middle school game I would work. There is an IESA but that does not apply to all games in the state. So that is what I mean about accountability. If I work a middle school game there is almost never a larger organization or standard of behavior. The assignor might be the only line of defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
I'd rather do a competitive 4th grade game (yes, there is such a thing) or MS game than a 60-point HS blow-out, especially when I feel like I'm contributing to the kids' game in ways that the typical overweight, over-the-hill or indifferent official can't or won't.
I would agree with that, but that never happens here. We have a 30 point mercy rule that applies in the 4th Quarter and it is rare that even happens. Again like I said I work only boys games, hardly ever had a game where the score is that out of hand. But I will say, have a greater chance of working with officials you describe at the lower levels. I rarely work a single high school game with someone that cannot work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
And, fortunately for me, with lots of HSs and MSs in the Philadelphia suburbs, I set a 20-mile limit on Arbiter and I still work as much as I care to.

That's my experience, and I won't generalize beyond that.
I work in the Chicagoland area and Northwest Indiana. Schools are all over the place. I will never work a middle school game unless I am being helpful and someone needs a last-second replacement. But I work enough and would rather make real money that being a ho and getting excited that I made 75 dollars working two games. I have no tolerance for this. But this is my overall point, I do not have to. That is ultimately the reality in this situation.

Peace
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 14, 2020, 10:42am
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Not The Wild Wild West ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
There is no such thing at any middle school game I would work ... about accountability. If I work a middle school game there is almost never a larger organization or standard of behavior.
That's unfortunate. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, while middle school unsporting activity reports may not reach the state level, things do move a little up the chain.

All middle school unsporting technical fouls (and anything unsporting, i.e., fans) are reported to our assignment commissioner. He then reports the unsporting activity to the athletic director (of the high school, or school district). Public middle school coaches are usually supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district.

Not the accountability of high schools, but there is some accountability. Supervising athletic directors do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events, and all public school coaches here in Connecticut are on one year contracts.

At least it's not the Wild Wild West.



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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 14, 2020 at 12:58pm.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 15, 2020, 09:43pm
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How did we get from a lawsuit involving old college officials trying to hang on to talk about middle school games and the accountability involved or lack thereof?

Grab your popcorn, strap in, and hold on tight, 'cause something big is about to happen.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 15, 2020, 11:20pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
That's unfortunate. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, while middle school unsporting activity reports may not reach the state level, things do move a little up the chain.

All middle school unsporting technical fouls (and anything unsporting, i.e., fans) are reported to our assignment commissioner. He then reports the unsporting activity to the athletic director (of the high school, or school district). Public middle school coaches are usually supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district.

Not the accountability of high schools, but there is some accountability. Supervising athletic directors do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events, and all public school coaches here in Connecticut are on one year contracts.
You are missing the point. This is not about reporting something to the AD or assignment chairperson. This is about having an overseeing organization like any state organization that if something happens, there is a formal reporting mechanism that could result in punishment or control eligibility. Many middle school games have no such larger organization. Actually Illinois to my understanding has the largest middle school organization called the Illinois Elementary Athletic Association. And the IESA is not a statewide organization. It is only part of the state (a large part). For example where I live there are not many IESA schools that participate in any such statewide tournaments. So if a coach or player is ejected or there is a fan that does something inappropriate, you cannot go to an organization other than maybe the administration or conference and they may or may not take action. If that happens with an IESA sporting event, they can suspend or penalize the school according to their by-laws. That is not the case if I work some local league, which has cause some real problems and why some officials do not work those games, there is a lack of accountability other than what the school decides they are going to do.

Peace
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 12:33pm
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Accountability Outside The School Venue ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You are missing the point. There is a lack of accountability other than what the school decides they are going to do.
I'm not missing the point, I'm saying that Connecticut may be doing it a little better than some other states.

Public middle school athletic events (and coaches) are supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district (system) in multiple high school cities, so there is some accountability above the middle school level.

Supervising athletic directors, which are not located in the offending school, but are at the high school, or the school district (system) office, do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events (public school coaches, including middle school coaches, here in Connecticut are on yearly evaluations and one year contracts).

Our assignment commissioner is simply a middleman in this process, with no penalty authority, gathering unsporting information (including all unsporting technical fouls, even "garden variety" unsporting technical fouls) from the officials and sending it to the athletic director at the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school (system) district.

In the case of "ejections" (players or coaches), or other really serious middle school unsporting problems, our assignment commissioner is also required to send the unsporting information to our state interscholastic sports governing body, and that organization will issue penalties, including game suspensions of middle school coaches.

In other words there is always accountability outside of the school venue, in the case of "garden variety" technical fouls, usually one step higher than the school principal (i.e., the athletic director), and in the case of serious problems ("ejections"), all the way up to our state interscholastic sports governing body.

JRutledge is correct in that accountability almost never goes to the state level unless it's of a serious nature. Every once in a while we hear about a middle school coach getting a one game suspension (happened to the coach of the school where I used to teach) for an ejection, but that's an extremely rare occurrence.

Unlike Las Vegas, unsporting activity in the middle school gym doesn't stay in the middle school gym, or even stay in the middle school; at the minimum it gets "bumped up" one level (athletic director outside of the school venue); at the maximum, it gets "bumped up" to the state level.



Unsporting activity at private middle schools (and private prep high schools) serviced by our local board, and many Catholic middle schools not serviced by our local board (but by some of our local board members "moonlighting"), may not have any higher level of accountability.

Recreation leagues? Travel leagues? AAU?

It's the Wild Wild West in Connecticut.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 16, 2020 at 04:55pm.
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