What options does a coach have?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.



Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.

Not in central Ohio. We give the player control signal on all offensive fouls. It's used as a way to communicate that they're are no free throws.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

You'd be wrong here in Ohio. PC and TC signal is arm behind the head here.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Not in central Ohio. We give the player control signal on all offensive fouls. It's used as a way to communicate that they're are no free throws.

Man, you Ohio guys are really serious about your signals.

Still waiting for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. to chime in. I bet he can't wait to yank my chain.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Man, you Ohio guys are really serious about your signals.

Still waiting for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. to chime in. I bet he can't wait to yank my chain.

We're the best! Lol

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Not in central Ohio. We give the player control signal on all offensive fouls. It's used as a way to communicate that they're are no free throws.

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In Oregon, we authorize the team control signal for pc fouls.

At one time, there was a reason to have different signals. Now, they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals. The only difference is that one is committed by the player with the ball and that difference is entirely irrelevant.

We chose the TC signal because it is a much better signal in almost every way.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We chose the TC signal because it is a much better signal in almost every way.

We have about 325 guys on our local board and also have about 325 different player control foul signals.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

At one time, there was a reason to have different signals. Now, they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals.

I'm not sure that I follow? I can't speak in regard to NFHS, but IAABO only added the team control foul signal when the NFHS decided not to shoot fouls committed by a team in control. I don't believe that there was a team control foul signal before then (not needed in the rules penalties, i.e., illegal screen, give the blocking foul signal and shoot the free throws if in the bonus). I believe the only change since then has been to add team control to throwins (only for foul purposes).

What was the reason for two different signals, and how were these two fouls treated differently back then (after the rule change (don't shoot)) as opposed to now?

Before the rule change (don't shoot) I don't believe that there was a team control foul signal (not needed in the rules penalties).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals. The only difference is that one is committed by the player with the ball and that difference is entirely irrelevant.

I agree with Camron Rust, but are there any Forum members smarter than me (that's almost all Forum members) who can come up with a situation where there is an actual need for two different signals (penalties, blarge, continuous motion, live ball/dead ball, airborne shooters, counting baskets, etc.)?

This is not a fun quiz, I actually can't think of such a situation.

Can we eliminate the player control foul signal without any unintended consequences?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We have about 325 guys on our local board and also have about 325 different player control foul signals.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I agree with Camron Rust, but are there any Forum members smarter than me (that's almost all Forum members) who can come up with a situation where there is an actual need for two different signals (penalties, live ball/dead ball, counting baskets, etc.)?



This is not a fun quiz, I actually can't think of such a situation.

Some table personnel aren't very bright and/or observant. Does the team control signal sometimes simply look like the official is pointing the other way?

*shrugs*

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[Rich1]

The only thing I can come up with is that player control cancels the shot but team control does not. Not sure why you would need an extra signal -- just waive it off as you report...

On a side note: Many officials in our area (especially vets/college guys) tend to just use the punch for both at the spot and only put the hand behind the head when they report. Of course, they are quick to chastise the newbies when they do the same -- do as I say not as I do!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The only thing I can come up with is that player control cancels the shot but team control does not ...

A team control foul doesn't cancel the shot? Are you sure?

There is no exception (ball does not become dead until the try ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor) for Article 4: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A player-control or team-control foul occurs.

Exceptions (ball does not become dead until the try ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor) are only made for articles 5, 6, 7, and 9.

6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 1 A goal, as in 5-1, is made.
ART. 2 It is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a:
a. Free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.
b. Free throw which is to be followed by a throw-in.
ART. 3 A held ball occurs, or the ball lodges between the backboard
and ring or comes to rest on the flange.
ART. 4 A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).
ART. 6 Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a
below).
ART. 7 A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see
exceptions a, b and c below).
ART. 8 A free-throw violation by the throwing team, as in 9-1, occurs.
ART. 9 A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (see exception d
below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or
until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in
flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try
or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred,
provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying
motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in
the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is
completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may
include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when
throwing the ball at his/her basket.
d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent.

[Altor]

So I got another one, and I'm curious how you all would have handled it.

A1 commits a common foul on B1 for team A's 9th foul of the half. The official reports the foul and signals for 2 shots. As he heads opposite table, he signals 2 shots to his partner. When he turns around, the table tries to get his attention that it should be 1-and-1. Partner tells the players 2 shots and bounces the ball to the shooter. Now, the timer is hitting the horn to stop the action, but nobody blows their whistle. B1 takes the shot and misses it. As expected nobody plays the rebound and the ball is given back to L who then looks at what the table wants and discovers the error.