Options??

Bob M. · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:25pm

R signals for and makes a fair catch at midfield. On the ensuing down, A22 runs for a TD. A65 holds B at B's 5 yardline. Let's discuss the options for dealing with this situation...and don't forget the clock. Federation and NCAA will differ.

JasonTX · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 04:05pm

For NCAA Team B can decline the penalty and accept the result of the play, a TD for team A. Most likely they will accept the penalty 10 yards from the spot of the foul (B-5 yard line) It will be A 1st and 10 from the B-15 and the clock will start on the snap.

mcrowder · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 04:09pm

I believe the difference here between the rulesets (and you FED guys can correct me if I'm wrong) is that in FED, Team A would have the option of a freekick after such a sequence.

Bob M. · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 04:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
I believe the difference here between the rulesets (and you FED guys can correct me if I'm wrong) is that in FED, Team A would have the option of a freekick after such a sequence.

REPLY: Shhh! Don't tell everybody. We're trying to keep it a secret.

JasonTX · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 05:05pm

Dang. I started to attempt my guess at NF and that is what my guess was, but I deleted because I thought since it didn't occur right after the fair catch and a play had been ran.

Theisey · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 05:48pm

NF: Probably the most difficult option to consider would be do you inform team-A that since team-B is accepting the penalty would you now like to free kick from the b-15.

I know we tossed this around on one of the other boards just this past season. Don't know if any consenus was reached, but I for one am not going to say a thing. It's up to the coach to know and request this.

As far as the clock.. The TD stopped the clock. I think we all know by now what to do with it if the penalty is accepted. Under normal circumstances it would be accepted to wipe off the 6 points.

Suudy · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 07:27pm

Why not mix it up?

R signals for and makes a fair catch at midfield. On the ensuing down, A22 runs to the 5 yard line where he laterals forward to A31 who runs for a touchdown.

Options and clock?

Theisey · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 08:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suudy
Why not mix it up?
...

What's different in this play from the original. Unless you left out that this was during the last timed down of the game with team-A behind in the score, there is no difference.

mcrowder · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 09:14am

Isn't an illegal forward pass a loss of down, which would mean a loss of the ability to freekick?

(What the heck is a "forward lateral" anyway... lateral means sideways, and forward means something entirely different).

Suudy · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 10:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
Isn't an illegal forward pass a loss of down, which would mean a loss of the ability to freekick?

That's what I was getting at. Isn't the right to choose a free kick lost in this case?

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
(What the heck is a "forward lateral" anyway... lateral means sideways, and forward means something entirely different).

Fair enough. But I think you got the intent.

Theisey · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 11:00am

I agree that the penalty for illegal forward pass includes a loss of down. But that new rule doesn't kick in unless this is the last timed down of the game.

LOD has no significance since the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty. That's why I don't see any difference in this other play variation.

Suudy · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 11:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
I agree that the penalty for illegal forward pass includes a loss of down. But that new rule doesn't kick in unless this is the last timed down of the game.

LOD has no significance since the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty. That's why I don't see any difference in this other play variation.

Two differences:
1. The LOD prevents A from choosing the free-kick option.
2. Since it is a loose-ball play, isn't the basic spot the previous spot? (I'm not clear on this part. What is the enforcement?)

My point in bringing up this scenario was to show that A loses its choice of a free-kick, since it is not the same down.

Middleman · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 12:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suudy

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
I agree that the penalty for illegal forward pass includes a loss of down. But that new rule doesn't kick in unless this is the last timed down of the game.

LOD has no significance since the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty. That's why I don't see any difference in this other play variation.

Two differences:
1. The LOD prevents A from choosing the free-kick option.
2. Since it is a loose-ball play, isn't the basic spot the previous spot? (I'm not clear on this part. What is the enforcement?)

My point in bringing up this scenario was to show that A loses its choice of a free-kick, since it is not the same down.

Taking second things first, an illegal forward pass beyond the line of scrimmage ("lateral forward") is a running play, not a loose ball play. Enforce from the spot of the foul.

First things second, in the play presented (Fair Catch at the 50, subsequent running play, foul by A at the 5) A would not be given the opportunity to choose to free kick from the 15 because a new series is awarded following enforcement. The down is not replayed. Had the foul been committed at the 31, enforcement would have left A in posession short of the line to gain and the down would be replayed. From there they would get to choose to free kick if they so desired.

Theisey · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 12:39pm

Then how do you explain the ruling in case book play (b):

6.5.4 SITUATION: R1 signals for a fair catch beyond the neutral zone on K's 40. K2 interferes with R1's opportunity to make the catch. R chooses an awarded catch and to put the ball in play with a snap. During the down: (a) A1 gains 15 yards and the coach of B is charged with an unsportsmanlike foul; or (b) B2 commits pass interference; or (c) an inadvertent whistle sounds during A1's forward pass. RULING: In (a), the unsportsmanlike foul during the down does not give A another choice to snap or free kick. However in (b), A may snap or free kick following penalty enforcement. In (c), the down is replayed and A has the option to snap or free kick. (10-4-4a)

In (b) team-A was awarded a first down after penalty enforcement. Isn't this a new series?

nvfoa15 · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 01:43pm

In both plays the ball will be placed on the appropiate yardline (after measurement - B should accept the foul); it will be 1/10 for A, the clock will start on the snap (scoring down), and A retains its right to free kick or snap (6-5-4). This is fairly straight foward for the first play. In the second, there is the consideration of the LOD aspect of the illegal forward pass. Remember, LOD is loss of the "right to replay a down"(2-7-2). The LOD aspect of a penalty "has no significance ... if the line to gain has been reached after enforcement."(5-2-2, Fundamental X,9). Since the LOD is ignored, A retains the right to replay the down after enforcement (even though a new series is awarded) and, thus, retains the right of the Fair Catch options outlined in 6-5-4.

I see the basic question as this: Does the acceptance of a penalty mean that the down is replayed. I believe 5-2-2 answers that question as Yes!

Edited to correct rule reference.