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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 20, 2020, 04:20pm
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What options does a coach have?

Three errors on team-control fouls (well, two errors and a near-error), two different nights. What options does a coach have to get a crew to stop for a second and think things through?

1. A1 has the ball in the backcourt in transition. A2 fouls B3 in the backcourt. Officials line up for a 1-and-1. Coach A gets T's attention and says "Team control" while a couple of assistants give the player-control signal with their hand behind their head. T looks at the bench briefly then goes back to watching the free throws. B3 makes both free throws. Coach A says something to T (now L) again as they come up the floor. He blows the whistle and says "Yes, we're going to talk about it." In the end, they wipe off the free throws and give the ball to B at the designated spot nearest the foul.

The next week:
2. Near the end of the half, A11 fouls B12 while trying to get an offensive rebound. The table signals the 1-and-1 and the official shakes them off. The bench asks for the 1-and-1 and he's told it doesn't apply. They continue with the throw in and the half ends a minute later with a couple baskets made in the meantime. The officials meet at midcourt and have an extended discussion, then go over to the scorer and continue their discussion with her. I wasn't privy, but I got to believe they realized their mistake now that it was too late.

And I believe this because:
3. In 4Q, B23 fouls A24 away from the ball on the offensive end (Team B had control). The non-calling officials walk down to the other end with the ball and start to line up for free throws. The calling official (who was the one who shook off the 1-and-1 in the first half) starts to join them, but then realizes his mistake and clearly says to Coach B "This was definitely a team control foul" and brings the ball back for a throw-in.

So what can a coach do if he knows a mistake is being made, especially on something like free throws to get the crew to slow down and think about things? I put a few search terms in the NFHS online rulebook to see if he could call a time-out for a rules review like in football, and I don't see it.
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Old Mon Jan 20, 2020, 04:56pm
beware big brother
 
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Nothing. Hope he gets better officials in the future.
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Old Mon Jan 20, 2020, 05:05pm
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Correctable Error, Timing, Scoring, Alternating Possession Mistake ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
So what can a coach do if he knows a mistake is being made, especially on something like free throws to get the crew to slow down and think about things?
5-8-4: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official: Responds to the scorer’s signal to grant a coach’s request that a
correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession
mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be
presented at the scorer’s table where a coach of each team may be present.

5-11-4: Only one 60-second time-out is charged (or one 30-second
time-out, if that is the only type of time-out remaining) in 5-8-4 regardless
of the amount of time consumed when no correction is made.
EXCEPTION: No time-out is charged: If, in 5-8-4, the error or mistake is prevented or rectified.


5.8.4 SITUATION A: The appeal of the coach of Team A to an official, made while the ball is dead and the clock is stopped, is made when it is too late for correction of an error. RULING: Following the conference, the 60-second time-out remains charged to Team A and they are given the privilege of utilizing whatever time remains. The official will terminate the discussion with the coach immediately upon making a decision. If the discussion takes more than one minute, only one 60-second time-out is charged. (2-10-2; 5-11-4)

5.8.4 SITUATION B: The head coach from Team A requests a 60-second time-out to rectify a timing error. The referee grants the time-out to investigate the matter, but determines that no correction can be made. The scorer then informs the referee that Team A cannot be charged a 60-second time-out as they only have one 30-second time-out remaining. RULING: Since they have no 60-second time-outs remaining and there was no timing correction made, Team A will be charged their remaining 30-second time-out regardless of the amount of time consumed. (5-11-4)


2-10: Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set
aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.
ART. 2 In order to correct any of the officials’ errors listed in Article
1, such error must be recognized by an official no later than during the first
dead ball after the clock has properly started.
ART. 3 If in Article 1e the error is made while the clock is running and
the ball dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live
ball.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 20, 2020 at 05:10pm.
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Old Mon Jan 20, 2020, 05:13pm
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Team Control Foul ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
... errors on team-control fouls ... couple of assistants give the player-control signal with their hand behind their head.
Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.



Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 20, 2020 at 05:18pm.
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Old Mon Jan 20, 2020, 07:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.



Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.
You'd be wrong here in Ohio. PC and TC signal is arm behind the head here.
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Old Mon Jan 20, 2020, 07:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post

So what can a coach do if he knows a mistake is being made, especially on something like free throws to get the crew to slow down and think about things? I put a few search terms in the NFHS online rulebook to see if he could call a time-out for a rules review like in football, and I don't see it.
Use rule book terminology - and be specific. "That's a Team Control foul (you said that) and they shouldn't be shooting FTs. You will have a correctable error if you continue."
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Old Mon Jan 20, 2020, 10:36pm
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What options does a coach have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
1. A1 has the ball in the backcourt in transition. A2 fouls B3 in the backcourt. Officials line up for a 1-and-1. Coach A gets T's attention and says "Team control" while a couple of assistants give the player-control signal with their hand behind their head. T looks at the bench briefly then goes back to watching the free throws. B3 makes both free throws. Coach A says something to T (now L) again as they come up the floor. He blows the whistle and says "Yes, we're going to talk about it." In the end, they wipe off the free throws and give the ball to B at the designated spot nearest the foul.

So close. At that point, should have been at the point of interruption to correct the error, not the designated spot nearest the foul.



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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 08:27am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Well, so much for that nonsensical philosophy that coaches should ensure CE situations don't occur, otherwise they deserve getting the short end of the stick the CE rules are applied.
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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 09:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Well, so much for that nonsensical philosophy that coaches should ensure CE situations don't occur, otherwise they deserve getting the short end of the stick the CE rules are applied.
Where did that come from? I've never heard of that before.
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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 09:51am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Where did that come from? I've never heard of that before.
A theme in this forum from conversations all the way back to when I joined this group. Folks reason that CE rules are written a certain way is to ensure coaches are honest and point out the error to the officials and if they don't it's their fault when they get the short end of the stick (i.e.: team gets free throws they aren't entitled to, CE is recognized while other team is in possession, their free throws get wiped off, and POI is a throw-in for the opposing team, so the team that got foul essentially loses both points and possession).
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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
A theme in this forum from conversations all the way back to when I joined this group. Folks reason that CE rules are written a certain way is to ensure coaches are honest and point out the error to the officials and if they don't it's their fault when they get the short end of the stick (i.e.: team gets free throws they aren't entitled to, CE is recognized while other team is in possession, their free throws get wiped off, and POI is a throw-in for the opposing team, so the team that got foul essentially loses both points and possession).
Whether that's a *reason* or not, it is an *effect*, and, in my view, a good one.
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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 11:18am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Whether that's a *reason* or not, it is an *effect*, and, in my view, a good one.
A lot of good it did in the OP. It's always been a cop out, IMO, so officials can blame others when a team gets screwed out of possession.
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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 11:30am
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Billy: Thanks for the rules citations. I don't know how I missed them. So it would have been possible for the coach to call a timeout to slow the crew down. He just risks them still not agreeing with him and losing the timeout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.
Somebody mentioned that Ohio doesn't use the book signals for this, and it was in Ohio. Note that the head coach did properly use the phrase "team control." I was using those phrases to describe what I saw as best I could using rule book terminology.

Quote:
Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.
They were.
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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 11:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
A lot of good it did in the OP. It's always been a cop out, IMO, so officials can blame others when a team gets screwed out of possession.
If officials blame others for missing this, then I agree. If officials thank others for pointing it out and preventing a CF, then I disagree.

My experience has been the latter.
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Old Tue Jan 21, 2020, 11:38am
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Risk ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
So it would have been possible for the coach to call a timeout to slow the crew down. He just risks them still not agreeing with him and losing the timeout.
Bingo.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jan 21, 2020 at 11:41am.
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